Fenzi Dog Sports Academy

[GeorgieB]

Not sure if this would help, but you could get him to touch your hand with the treat in it, say yes, then reward him with a treat from your other hand, not the treat in the hand he touches? Might help him understand the exercise more easily? I'm not sure

[silentchild]

I hold my hand out with a treat between my fingers, as his nose touches my hand, I say yes and he gets the treat - that is no problem, he will do this over and over again..

Hmm.... just a wild thought and it may not even work, but how about trying exactly what you are doing, having the treat in your fingers and he touches your hand - but when you say 'Yes', have hidden treats in your other hand or pocket or something and give him the treat from the other hand? So essentially the treat in your 'touch' hand is the lure to still get him to touch it, but the reward comes from the other hand - and once he is really strong on the understanding of how it works, try fading the treat lure in the 'touch' hand, and he should be conditioned to touch the hand, then get the treat? I hope I explained myself clearly, if not I can try taking a video of what I have in my head, lol.

I totally understand being frustrated when they just don't seem to get it... have been there many times! Sometimes taking a break works wonders too! You will get there! :)

Edit : Oops Georgia beat me to it! :laugh: Yeah, what she said, lol.

Edited August 10, 2014 by silentchild

[Jumabaar]

Jumabaar - I got a kit recently. Message me if you like and I'll give the details - or ask Jo B when you see her at work next.

EDITED: Scrap that. I might have purchased the last one!

I recently did some research and found a place to buy 2 of the 3 scents. Want that link instead?

I think you did get the last one- and I finally got my dogs sniffing rather than pawing and one of them scoffed the blasted Q-tip!! I assume it fell through one of the container holes during some overzealous indicating haha.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Ugh, I spoke too soon..

They have introduced 'touch' - teaching a dog to touch your hand or an item...

I cannot get Zig to do this - I have watched loads of videos and he still just doesn't get it.

Anyone else have issues with teaching touch?

I rub dried liver between my hands then offer an empty palm.

It's been pretty fail safe so far.

If you reward a 'look' in the palm direction a few times, often the dog can get stuck only expending the least amount of effort possible. :laugh:

It sounds like he thinks sniffing in the direction is the finished product - have you added a cue? You might need to change the word and possibly get him to touch one of his toys in order to reteach it with a new cue, then transfer to other things, then to your hand.

ETA: I have two teenage pups on Thursday that haven't been taught, I could video it for you if needed. :)

Edited August 10, 2014 by Staff'n'Toller

[Scottsmum]

Jumabaar - I got a kit recently. Message me if you like and I'll give the details - or ask Jo B when you see her at work next.

EDITED: Scrap that. I might have purchased the last one!

I recently did some research and found a place to buy 2 of the 3 scents. Want that link instead?

I think you did get the last one- and I finally got my dogs sniffing rather than pawing and one of them scoffed the blasted Q-tip!! I assume it fell through one of the container holes during some overzealous indicating haha.

I've been so lazy with him - now I feel even more guilty about it knowing I have the last (current) kit. Really need to pull my socks up.

As I said, I found a supplier of scents 2 and 3 if you want a link. Cant quite locate an Aussie supplier of scent 1 yet.

[GeorgieB]

Edit : Oops Georgia beat me to it! :laugh: Yeah, what she said, lol.

Haha Snap SC :laugh: I think you explained it better than me ;)

[Staffyluv]

Not sure if this would help, but you could get him to touch your hand with the treat in it, say yes, then reward him with a treat from your other hand, not the treat in the hand he touches? Might help him understand the exercise more easily? I'm not sure

That was how we started, the original way I was shown to teach it and it didn't work. That is why I changed to treating with the hand that he actually touched..

I keep going back to this trick and have tried to teach it so many times since he came home with me. I keep giving up out of frustration and I think this time, I am going to give it up for good.

I really do appreciate the suggestions and advice. We have tried every way of teaching this that has been suggested, I've watched videos on how to teach it.

Maybe he doesn't like to touch something with his nose or muzzle?

He won't shake paws or give you a paw either.. Every dog I have ever owned, this was the first trick ever taught but Zig simply won't do it..

Maybe he is the same with the touch as he is with shake or give paw.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Staffyluv

[silentchild]

Not sure if this would help, but you could get him to touch your hand with the treat in it, say yes, then reward him with a treat from your other hand, not the treat in the hand he touches? Might help him understand the exercise more easily? I'm not sure

That was how we started, the original way I was shown to teach it and it didn't work. That is why I changed to treating with the hand that he actually touched..

I keep going back to this trick and have tried to teach it so many times since he came home with me. I keep giving up out of frustration and I think this time, I am going to give it up for good.

I really do appreciate the suggestions and advice. We have tried every way of teaching this that has been suggested, I've watched videos on how to teach it.

Maybe he doesn't like to touch something with his nose or muzzle?

He won't shake paws or give you a paw either.. Every dog I have ever owned, this was the first trick ever taught but Zig simply won't do it..

Maybe he is the same with the touch as he is with shake or give paw.

Bummer Staffyluv. That must be frustrating. Maybe you can substitute the touches with something else, like a jump to your hand, from what I've seen of Fenzi courses she mainly uses the touch as a reward while heeling, like she will hold her hand up high and get the dog to jump up to touch it to build motivation. I wonder if you could do the same just without the touching. My girl is not keen on touching either, she will do it but it's not one of her favourites, and she certainly won't jump to touch, so I just don't do it much. That's the great thing about online courses, you can take and apply what works for you and leave what doesn't. You will be fine. :)

With the shake paw, Breeze wouldn't do it at the start too, I was going out of my mind with frustration why she wouldn't do it, I spent ages on it, watching videos, clicking and treating for the slightest movement of the paw, lifting her paw with my hand and rewarding - everything. I spent months agonizing over it, and nothing worked. All the dogs in the videos seemed to understand immediately, except my dog!

In the end I decided to just give up on it and moved to teaching something else - I went to teach her 'Stinky' - aka covering her muzzle with her paw, and when I taught that I used sticky tape on her head to reward when she lifted her paw to go and remove it.... and lo and behold when I captured the paw lift a lightbulb magically went off in her head when she realized I wanted her to lift her paw - and now shake paws is her most favourite trick ever! "Oh you wanted me to do THIS?! Well why didn't you SAY SO??"

Funny and challenging creatures dogs are, makes training them so rewarding. :D

[Staffyluv]

He isn't supposed to jump (he has HD)

lol at the sticky tape on her head - that might actually work for Zig, he hates things on his head.

I think I find it frustrating because he picks some things up so quickly and easily and then simple things, he just doesn't get it..

I made my mind up to leave it alone.. It isn't fair to him that I get frustrated that I can't teach him something when he really is a super dog to me in so many other ways.

I have a friend who is a trainer and she has offered to help me with it - I might take her up on it in about a month after we do our noseworks workshop and the weather is a bit nicer outside.

[The Spotted Devil]

Staffyluv - have you done much free shaping with Zig? It's a very nice, no pressure way to teach the dog to offer new behaviours and deal with frustration.

[silentchild]

I get you Staffyluv... I feel the same way very often, frustration is my absolute weak point. Oh, the hours spent with my head in my hands in frustration.... I've had to abruptly cut many training sessions short the moment I feel even the slightest frustration building and just play and have fun instead. :D Breeze is the same, super super smart, and so quick at learning new things, but I am just stupid and bad in communicating to her what I want. At the moment we are struggling with getting her to hold things in her mouth - not great for dumbbell work! When she does get it tho she is excellent and just constantly blows me away with her intelligence. In the right trainer's hands she could probably solve physics equations! I just have to work on becoming that trainer. It took a while but I think (hope) I am much better at controlling my frustration now and learnt to laugh it off - not easy! I guess I just wanted to say you are not alone. :)

[Staffyluv]

TSD, I have just been talking about shaping with Huski on FB and I guess I have done a bit of it but not much - we think it may help Zig build some confidence, so I am all for it.

Just another thing to learn :)

When I bought his fitpaws fit disc, to help build his core strength, to help with his HD - it was a battle to get him near it.

So we started with sitting it near him and rewarding him if he didn't move away from it.

Then he was rewarded for touching it.

He already knew 'on', so we escalated to one paw on, then two paws on.

We can get him 'up' with all four paws on but he obviously doesn't like it, so I don't push it and we use it more with front paws on and then back paws, walking over it etc..

Basically we took it step by step and every time he achieved one, we moved the goal post and pushed him that bit more.

I tend to be careful with him because he will shut down if pushed too hard. If I get frustrated, I tend to just close down the training session with a 'catch the treat or ball' so it always ends on a good note. So he is always happy to 'work'.

He heels nicely and 'usually' sits at heel in a nice position. I had to correct him and move him in closer once and he dropped and wouldn't get up again. So it ended the training session. All I did was put my hand on his rump and slide him in..

I don't know why he is so precious about it but a physical correction causes him to shut down, so I tend to 'lure' him into everything I have taught him.

Treats at home and the ball when out.

He will do it all without a lure or a treat but obviously it is much better with.

If you have some names of videos for free shaping that I can look up, I would appreciate it.

Thanks SC, they sure are sent to test us sometimes.

I know the majority of Zig's issues are mine, not his.

Good example for ages when heeling he would walk nearly a metre away from me - no one could work out why.

Turns out, it is the way I hold the lead. It is looped around my hand and the handle was hanging too close to his face, so he was avoiding being close to it. I changed leads and it was solved instantly.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Staffyluv

[The Spotted Devil]

Have a look on google for 101 things to do with a box. I still pull out a box and free shape ANYTHING the dogs offer. Builds confidence (good for my Dally) and helps with frustration (my Springer :laugh: )

Also good for me!!!! Personally I love to settle into a comfy chair with a glass of wine or a cuppa and a bag of treats for the dogs. Place the box in front of you and reward anything but never the same thing more than twice. Relax. Laugh. Enjoy.

Edited August 11, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[Staffyluv]

Thanks for that :)

[silentchild]

TSD, with 101 things to do with a box (sorry guys I know this is not Fenzi-related, sorry for going off topic! Sorry!) what do you do when the dog keeps offering the same behaviour even when you withhold a click? With my girl she will 'touch' the box repeatedly after the initial click and treat as she thinks that's what I want, and if I withhold the click she will just sit or lie down. If I move the box elsewhere to try and get a different behaviour, she will just do it again, and again if click is withheld, she just lies there and stares at me with "Stupid human WTF do you want" eyes. :laugh: So say for example I end the session and try again the next day. Say the next day she paws the box instead of 'touching' it. Click and treat! But then she just repeats it again and the whole process repeats itself. So regardless of whatever behaviour I click and treat, she will just repeat the same behaviour with no variations until she gives me the finger, LOL. Karen Pryor says to just withhold the click - that doesn't work for Breeze sometimes. Any ideas?

[Podengo]

I love sitting in front of the fire with a wine and a big bowl of treats playing 101 things with a *insert random object here* - it's sooo fun and always has me giggling and Elsie trying out all her silly tricks, and learning some new ones.

[The Spotted Devil]

silentchild - that is not an unusual response if they don't understand free shaping. And clicking/treating the same behaviour repeatedly will also make it worse. Try doing it in the bathroom where she can't give you the finger and leave the training area. Make sure the dog is SUPER hungry and the treats are AMAZING. The other way I got Zig through this training hump was to give one treat for every behaviour but a jackpot (handful or 2 minutes of treats etc) and a PARTY for every new behaviour. It was a nice way to say "that was ok but not great" without the dog giving up :)

A little frustration is good because they will often whack something with their paw in disgust but a lack of persistence sees them give up. Some dogs need to be taught persistence.

Edited August 11, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[silentchild]

Thanks TSD. She doesn't ever leave the training area, she just sits or lies down and gives up/shuts down, or she will cycle through her entire repertoire of tricks, which have nothing to do with the box. I don't like pushing her to the point of shutting down either, as she is such a sensitive dog and lacks confidence...

Yes, super hungry always and I only use amazing treats. I guess I will just have to wait her out? LOL. I'll give it another go tonight. Her being sore unfortunately leaves me with plenty of time to work on quiet tricks like the box stuff.

Ok, I'm done with derailing the thread.

Edited August 11, 2014 by silentchild

[Staffyluv]

You are not derailing this thread SC - this is exactly what it is for.

There are a lot of people who only do Bronze classes, so can only read over there - I thought this is a good place to ask questions for those of us on Bronze over there..

I know I said I was going to give it a rest but I couldn't help myself..

Guess what Zig just did - he touched my hand.

I walked inside, got a piece of cheese out of the fridge and I held my hand to the side of his nose (about 20cm away) and I looked at him and looked at my hand - he moved over and touched it with his nose. I said yes and treated him.

Then I held my other hand on the other side of his nose, looked him in the eye and looked at my hand - and he did it again.. So I said YES and gave him the cheese again.

Just to be sure, I did it one more time with each hand and he did it each time.

He moved to my hand - I didn't say touch, I just said yes when he did it.

I think we might be starting to 'get it'..

[The Spotted Devil]

Brilliant! So leave the cue for now and get him confident about touching your hand (there are varying thoughts on whether to be consistent with hand position or to vary it). When he's really got the idea, don't reward when he touches it once. If he understands the hand touch he is likely to get frustrated with you for not rewarding his brilliant hand touch and whack you again - suddenly you've rewarded multiple hand touches Then you can only reward firm touches vs soft and variable numbers. Good on you Staffyluv!