RallyValley Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Does anyone have a link available to the thread about the poor family that got a Border Collie from a BYB and it ended up with a fatal genetic disease? A must read if they are considering a Border Collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esky the husky Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 For what it's worth BYB pups are definitely not all loved or reared well at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) If she's wanting a pup in NSWi can suggest Mahteek Deidre has pups listed at the moment. Deidre is the owner/breeder of the sire of my Aussie Shepherd. She also owns my girl's sister and currently has a litter from her. I actually haven't met her personally but she mentored my girl's breeder through their litter(s) and they did a great job, and the parents were definitely much loved pets :) ETA - and they definitely did all the relevant health testing of my girl's parents and provided me with copies of the results. Edited July 28, 2014 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VizslaMomma Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I think that it's a very common misconception that all breeders are like puppy farmers. There was a guy on FB looking for a pup and when it was suggested he check out a registered breeder he had a rant about not wanting to buy off a kennel and would prefer byb as they are loved pets. I told him I must be doing all wrong then as my birch whelped in my bedroom and stayed there with her pups for the first 3 weeks of their lives. Ah, the whelping in the bedroom scenario. I know that one :D Kizie Poodle had a great whelping box build for her in an air-conditioned room. She had been shown the box, slept in the box. Day of wehlping, she nudged open the bottom drawer of a hand-made cedar chest of drawers. It was her home for the next 6 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.mister Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) That link that was posted earlier is well worth a read for the OP and their friend - TNS is a terrible disease in BCs and it is inheritable - if the parents haven't been tested (and if they're byb, they certainly won't have) then it's a game of russian roulette as to whether the pup will be healthy or not. Keep in mind that parents can be completely healthy but still carry the disease and pass it on to their pups. Perhaps that will jolt them into going the ethical registered breeder route - there is nothing more heartbreaking than your puppy suffering a horrible death from an inheritable (and preventable) disease. Edited July 28, 2014 by mr.mister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remarkabull Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I think that it's a very common misconception that all breeders are like puppy farmers. There was a guy on FB looking for a pup and when it was suggested he check out a registered breeder he had a rant about not wanting to buy off a kennel and would prefer byb as they are loved pets. I told him I must be doing all wrong then as my birch whelped in my bedroom and stayed there with her pups for the first 3 weeks of their lives. Ah, the whelping in the bedroom scenario. I know that one :D Kizie Poodle had a great whelping box build for her in an air-conditioned room. She had been shown the box, slept in the box. Day of wehlping, she nudged open the bottom drawer of a hand-made cedar chest of drawers. It was her home for the next 6 weeks. Lol, thankfully Simi was happy to stay in the whelping box. I only planned on leaving them in my room for a week but the pups had other ideas and cried constantly and loudly when removed from the air con in my room so they stayed there another 2 weeks. I also converted my loungeroom into a puppy crèche until they went to their new homes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Here's the TNS stuff or why you want a breeder that tests for this... http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/238882-sick-border-collie-pup/ http://bordercolliehealth.com/TNSdatabase.html You probably also want to avoid "exercise induced collapse" tho I'm not sure if there is a test. And those other things. There's great working line and show BC breeders but also many crappy ones. And it's really difficult if you know of one line - where one dog is winning at agility and the other can't compete because it's essentially crippled - joint problems and EIC. Not easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) The key is people can right any words to make you think awesome so its important to check out what is fact from fiction & what each breeder offers in support & knowledge Which is why I left out the breeder's kennel name in that example, because as I said I didn't know that person in reality. It's a case of checking out the actual circumstances with your own eyes and ears.... which I mentioned in my very first post. And having a specific list of what you're looking for. In fact, running thro' all the posts in this thread, it's possible to pull out some general criteria. And there's also research. We have our own UQ research which pointed to the importance of early socialization ...in critical early weeks...in determining how the pup becomes hardwired to interacting comfortably with people. And there's US research which shows that puppies coming from breeders who raise them in more home-based situations....with the everyday contact with people and their lives... tend to develop into more well-balanced pets. It also needs to be made clear what someone means by 'kenneled'. It doesn't mean there's no use of 'kennels' in keeping dogs. Many breeders who include their dogs in their everyday homelife much the same as the average pet dog.... have kennels where they sleep at night. It's a question of what life dogs have outside any kenneling. Edited July 28, 2014 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) I hate the term backyard breeder. Many small registered breeders keep their dogs in the backyard . . . and some of them advertise their pups on Gumtree. Some of them don't show and may be called BYB's by show folks. Border Collies are not my breed and I don't know what diseases prevail, and what health tests can or should be done. I do know there's a big fuss in the breed between different registries and lots of politics and backbiting relating to working vs. show vs. trial-ing . . .and that some esteemed lines are inbred and not particularly healthy. Back in the days I ran a kennel (in WA), some of the BC's we saw were high strung to the point where they would be difficult pets. I'd encourage your friend to research the breed carefully, define what she's looking for, and ask the hard questions of any breeder he or she approaches. The following might be an interesting read (depending on what she's looking for: http://www.border-wars.com/2014/07/why-border-collies-transcript-and-gallery.html Edited July 28, 2014 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) I hate the term backyard breeder. I think the RSPCA use the term "irresponsible breeder" (avoid) vs "responsible breeder" (seek). http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-a-responsible-companion-animal-breeder_327.html PS - the first breeder described fails on point 2 - about "are given the opportunity to exercise, play and lead a normal life." Edited July 28, 2014 by Mrs Rusty Bucket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) I know dozens of Border Collie breeders and most only have 6-12 dogs at a time and breed an average 1-3 litters a year. This applies to all the main show kennels. I only ever had a maximum of 4 dogs at a time and bred just one litter every couple of years and still managed to breed good show dogs. Every breeder I know has their dogs as pets first and show dogs second and I know of no one who ever makes a profit breeding BCs. I would love to know where they went that had 30 dogs in kennels. I cannot think of any show breeder in NSW with that number of dogs. Sadly there are a lot of breeders just breeding odd colours for profit and they are the ones who tend to breed a lot of puppies. I can happily recommend any number of breeders to them but of the DOL listings I would recommend less than half that advertise on there. If you watch the puppy listings, the ones that seem to have adds on there permanently are the ones to avoid. I also think your friend may have misunderstood the breeder about how often the dogs get out of their kennels. If they are showing them they need extensive exercise to be in show condition so they would be out of the kennels every day for exercise. You are wasting your time showing an unfit BC. The breeder probably meant that the dogs only left the property to go to shows. Edited July 28, 2014 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) I know dozens of Border Collie breeders and most only have 6-12 dogs at a time and breed an average 1-3 litters a year. This applies to all the main show kennels. I only ever had a maximum of 4 dogs at a time and bred just one litter every couple of years and still managed to breed good show dogs. Every breeder I know has their dogs as pets first and show dogs second and I know of no one who ever makes a profit breeding BCs. I would love to know where they went that had 30 dogs in kennels. I cannot think of any show breeder in NSW with that number of dogs. Sadly there are a lot of breeders just breeding odd colours for profit and they are the ones who tend to breed a lot of puppies. I can happily recommend any number of breeders to them but of the DOL listings I would recommend less than half that advertise on there. If you watch the puppy listings, the ones that seem to have adds on there permanently are the ones to avoid. I also think your friend may have misunderstood the breeder about how often the dogs get out of their kennels. If they are showing them they need extensive exercise to be in show condition so they would be out of the kennels every day for exercise. You are wasting your time showing an unfit BC. The breeder probably meant that the dogs only left the property to go to shows. So very difficult for the average pet dog buyer to judge. Edited coz I think I was unfair. Edited July 28, 2014 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The show bred litters from well known reputable breeders currently listed in NSW are Mahteek, Ancrum, Ingenue, Langtry, Tojess, Neecabe, Ammarin and possibly Bimbee who used to show. These should have well bred puppies from health tested parents and at least 6 of them only have small numbers of dogs. The other two I’m not certain of numbers but I doubt they would have 30 on the property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miss2 Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 I will also send her the link for that bc pup I am cranky at them for giving up after one breeder but as I said, it comes down to an element of laziness. Fingers crossed they will see the health benefits of going with a different registered breeder that does all the appropriate testings! There other train of thought is “ we had our past BC for 12 years, dad got him out of the paper and he was healthy” once again thanks everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Sounds like they want a pup now, and are finding and excuse to get one asap rather than possibly having to wait for a really well bred one... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Sounds like they want a pup now, and are finding and excuse to get one asap rather than possibly having to wait for a really well bred one... T. There are 51 litters listed on DOL so it isn't as if they would have to wait long. They just need to visit a couple more breeders. Than again if they are too lazy to look for a good puppy they will probably be too lazy to train it. BCs are wonderful but they are a lot of work to keep their minds active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Tell me about it... my cousin asked me to find him a rescue pup, but his wife kyboshed the idea because they have 4 kids and a couple of chickens that he's always "too tired" to help look after... so he went and bought a BC pup from a pet shop... Said BC has never had any training, pisses and shits in the house, and is a general pain in the proverbial - and they insist on bringing it along to family gatherings where it bites anyone who gets anywhere near my cousin's children (the youngest of whom is 10)... I suppose they got lucky that it seems to be pretty healthy so far... it could live for 19 years! T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 1406540668[/url]' post='6533440']1406527275[/url]' post='6533273']I think that it's a very common misconception that all breeders are like puppy farmers. There was a guy on FB looking for a pup and when it was suggested he check out a registered breeder he had a rant about not wanting to buy off a kennel and would prefer byb as they are loved pets. I told him I must be doing all wrong then as my birch whelped in my bedroom and stayed there with her pups for the first 3 weeks of their lives. Ah, the whelping in the bedroom scenario. I know that one :D Kizie Poodle had a great whelping box build for her in an air-conditioned room. She had been shown the box, slept in the box. Day of wehlping, she nudged open the bottom drawer of a hand-made cedar chest of drawers. It was her home for the next 6 weeks. Kizie is clearly an elegant girl with great taste!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) 1406622036[/url]' post='6534009']1406615450[/url]' post='6533925']Sounds like they want a pup now, and are finding and excuse to get one asap rather than possibly having to wait for a really well bred one... T. There are 51 litters listed on DOL so it isn't as if they would have to wait long. They just need to visit a couple more breeders. Than again if they are too lazy to look for a good puppy they will probably be too lazy to train it. BCs are wonderful but they are a lot of work to keep their minds active. You read my mind - I'm no BC expert but it occurred to me that if they won't make an effort to find a breeder they are happy with will they actually find the time to exercise and mentally stimulate a BC? I could never have a BC because of my work hours and voluntary commitments. Westies are a perfect fit to my lifestyle as they don't meltdown if they don't get walked daily. Hmn... Maybe they need to re-consider the breed as well as the breeder... Edited July 30, 2014 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 My BC is a total pain in the arse as a pet. But then again aren't they supposed to be a dog who can or would work all day? If they don't have drive, enthusiasm and a want to be on the go then they are kinda not really what they are supposed to be are they! If they are not willing to put in the effort to find the right dog, I suspect they are not willing to put in the effort a BC requires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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