Type Of Halti Recommendation

[Salukifan]

The lunging makes a head collar entirely unsuitable for this dog. I'd also not recommend a harness - you cannot effectively control a dog if you do not have control of its head. Even worse for larger dogs.

Your friend should ask her behaviourist for a recommendation but frankly I'd have the dog on check chain and be doing some intensive training to regain control.

I'll take you word for the fact that the dog is not aggressive but a lunging out of control dog is not what I want to meet on my walks ESPECIALLY if it is in a halti or harness.

Bit of an oxymoron there. You correctly state that you cannot effectively control a dog if you do not have control of it's head. You then go on to recommend a check chain which gives you no control whatsoever of the dog's head.

A lunging dog is not what anyone wants to meet irrespective of whichever training tool the handler is using.

You can control a dog's head with a normal collar. People have been doing it for decades. Want more control? Fit it up behind the dog's ears. All that a halti does is make it easier because its actually ON the head. But the analogy with a horse halter isn't accurate. They don't work the same way at all.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[cavNrott]

I'd be a bit disappointed in any head collar that allowed the dog to pull.

They are only as good as the person using them sadly. Some people seem to think they are a magic bullet for pulling. I've seen plenty of dogs who have learned to lean into them and pull.

The magic bullet for pulling is, and has always been, T R A I N I N G. If a halti helps you achieve that, it all good. However, in my experience, a dog once fitted with a halti will wear it for life. Given the sensitivity of a dog's muzzle, that's really sad IMO. Pulling or not, the halti is tightly fitted over highly sensitive nerves. The number of dogs that claw their faces trying to get them off on first fitting is not small.

I was just about to go and do something constructive but wow, I need to correct something here.

A Halti is not tightly fitted over sensitive nerves. It is fitted around the neck like an ordinary flat collar. It has a loose loop around the muzzle which tightens when the dog pulls on the lead. The loop falls loose when the dog stops pulling which releases the pressure on the lead.

Really, a dog will claw at their face to pull anything off it, especially a piece of food. Put a small piece of soft cloth on your dog's face and see if it doesn't try to get it off.

Have you had personal experience with the Halti? I ask because you're posting things that may be the case with some head halters but definitely not with the Halti.

It is also NOT the case that if a dog is once fitted with a Halti (I'm assuming here you mean trained or wears rather than fitted) it will wear it for life.

My dedicated puller who weighed a bit more than I do was trained on a Halti and once she understood and complied with commands she went onto a cloth Martingale with a chain loop which she wore for life because it saved me having to buckle on a collar every time we went out. She never again wore the Halti, it wasn't necessary because she was a very obedient and well behaved dog.

[BC Crazy]

The Infin-8 is certainly not tight around the dogs nose either. The collar part is your typical martingale collar. Both my guys were trained in Infin's through their teenage period then went to martingale collars & have been in them ever since :)

[cavNrott]

Reasonably calm dogs can be trained with a normal collar but this is not so with the more difficult dogs. If it was there would be no need for head collars and choke chains.

The magic bullet for pulling is, and has always been, T R A I N I N G

Totally agree. Use the training tool that is best for your dog and for you.

But the analogy with a horse halter isn't accurate. They don't work the same way at all

This ^ quote was in reference to Halti's and other head collars. I agree there is no similarity to a horse halter apart from the fact that they're worn on the head.

Edited July 26, 2014 by cavNrott

[huski]

Any tool you use to train loose leash walking is there to give the owner leverage so they can implement training. I've seen dogs pull on literally every tool there is - there is no one magic bullet. Totally agree with everyone else who has suggested seeing a reputable trainer. Teaching loose leash walking isn't difficult once you are shown how to do it, we have never had a dog (and owner) here for training that couldn't learn it in minutes.

Edited July 26, 2014 by huski

[persephone]

Any tool you use to train loose leash walking is there to give the owner leverage so they can implement training. I've seen dogs pull on literally every tool there is - there is no one magic bullet. Totally agree with everyone else who has suggested seeing a reputable trainer. Teaching loose leash walking isn't difficult once you are shown how to do it, we have never had a dog (and owner) here for training that couldn't learn it in minutes.

Which makes me wonder what is missing if this pup is still lunging and pulling with the owner after attending training and having a behaviourist consult

Also she is attending training and has seen a behaviourist recently. Dog is not aggressive just untrained.

... Hope they can get it sorted soon.

Edited July 26, 2014 by persephone

[The Spotted Devil]

Not always but I do find some owners quickly slip back into old habits when they leave the trainer. Same with dogs that are over fed - you educate the owners and they have good intentions but can very easily revert back to what is familiar. It's just human nature :)

Edited July 26, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[cavNrott]

Any tool you use to train loose leash walking is there to give the owner leverage so they can implement training. I've seen dogs pull on literally every tool there is - there is no one magic bullet. Totally agree with everyone else who has suggested seeing a reputable trainer. Teaching loose leash walking isn't difficult once you are shown how to do it, we have never had a dog (and owner) here for training that couldn't learn it in minutes.

Which makes me wonder what is missing if this pup is still lunging and pulling with the owner after attending training and having a behaviourist consult

Also she is attending training and has seen a behaviourist recently. Dog is not aggressive just untrained.

... Hope they can get it sorted soon.

If the dog is just untrained she doesn't need a behaviourist, she needs a trainer. If she's attending group training sessions she's not getting the drift and is just confusing and frustrating herself and her dog. It would be best for her to stop the group training sessions immediately and find a competent trainer to work one on one with her and the dog.

Pers, as you know her perhaps post the general area of where she lives and maybe someone can recommend a good trainer.

[persephone]

Any tool you use to train loose leash walking is there to give the owner leverage so they can implement training. I've seen dogs pull on literally every tool there is - there is no one magic bullet. Totally agree with everyone else who has suggested seeing a reputable trainer. Teaching loose leash walking isn't difficult once you are shown how to do it, we have never had a dog (and owner) here for training that couldn't learn it in minutes.

Which makes me wonder what is missing if this pup is still lunging and pulling with the owner after attending training and having a behaviourist consult

Also she is attending training and has seen a behaviourist recently. Dog is not aggressive just untrained.

... Hope they can get it sorted soon.

If the dog is just untrained she doesn't need a behaviourist, she needs a trainer. If she's attending group training sessions she's not getting the drift and is just confusing and frustrating herself and her dog. It would be best for her to stop the group training sessions immediately and find a competent trainer to work one on one with her and the dog.

Pers, as you know her perhaps post the general area of where she lives and maybe someone can recommend a good trainer.

I don't know her ??? well, I don't think I do ....

[cavNrott]

Sorry Perse, I thought you knew her but it's Skip who knows her and Skip is in NSW....So, I recommend K9Pro in NSW. This pup will be walking nicely and behaving itself after a session or two with K9Pro.

[LisaCC]

I trained my old labrador to walk nicely with a Gentle Leader, and within a few months successfully converted to a flat collar. Had used a check chain (with help from a trainer) and even up high he pulled through it.

I didn't know about them then (and trainers didn't mention them) but if it was today I would of used a prong.

But training on a head halter CAN successfully be done to the point where you can walk on a flat collar.

I do not understand the arguments of not judging prongs and checks because "it's the training which makes the difference not the tool", but so many people jump against head halters.

In my experience the head halter allowed control of the dog in the fact that we weren't going to be pulled over by a very strong dog at every lunge, and therefore the training could continue.

Edited July 26, 2014 by LisaCC

[huski]

Any tool you use to train loose leash walking is there to give the owner leverage so they can implement training. I've seen dogs pull on literally every tool there is - there is no one magic bullet. Totally agree with everyone else who has suggested seeing a reputable trainer. Teaching loose leash walking isn't difficult once you are shown how to do it, we have never had a dog (and owner) here for training that couldn't learn it in minutes.

Which makes me wonder what is missing if this pup is still lunging and pulling with the owner after attending training and having a behaviourist consult

Also she is attending training and has seen a behaviourist recently. Dog is not aggressive just untrained.

... Hope they can get it sorted soon.

It could be a number of reasons. It may be that the trainer is not the best fit for them, it could be that they struggle to follow through with advice away from training. Impossible to know just from reading this thread.

[Simply Grand]

Any tool you use to train loose leash walking is there to give the owner leverage so they can implement training. I've seen dogs pull on literally every tool there is - there is no one magic bullet. Totally agree with everyone else who has suggested seeing a reputable trainer. Teaching loose leash walking isn't difficult once you are shown how to do it, we have never had a dog (and owner) here for training that couldn't learn it in minutes.

Exactly! A head collar (whichever type) isn't supposed to be about correction or 'fixing' anything in itself, it's to allow a handler who doesn't have the physical strength to hold onto a dog the leverage (as huski said) to hold the dog in position so it can't lunge and can't self reward by pulling. That's all. The rest of the training is basically the same as you would do teaching any dog loose lead walking on a flat collar or anything else.

And yes, without that training a dog can easily learn to pull through any tool.

[Simply Grand]

Not always but I do find some owners quickly slip back into old habits when they leave the trainer. Same with dogs that are over fed - you educate the owners and they have good intentions but can very easily revert back to what is familiar. It's just human nature :)

Definitely true. We also don't actually know whether the person has had one lesson or ten at this stage, so they may well need a different trainer but maybe the current one just hasn't had a chance yet.

[skip]

Hello everyone!

Firstly let me say sorry that I didn't reply earlier. I did write a detailed post last night after a few champers! But my WiFi died and I lost it all!

Probably not a good idea to write under the influence anyway!

Good advice received thanks....particularly cavNrott and Simply Grand, you are spot on!.

Just to clarify.... the dog was a handful at puppy school and my friend wasn't encouraged and left after one lesson. Recently she joined my club which is basically a agility club. All the instructors compete in agility but most of our students come for basic classes. We have some very experienced instructors and my friend attended a few times as part of a six week course.( week 6 this Wed )

Her dog was pretty wild as no socialisation or training had happened and the dog was 9, 10 months. She worked mainly on the outskirts of our normal class of 10 and she was lucky and basically had a trainer to herself ( we have 3 trainers with 10 people). By her third time she had the dog doing nose touches while distractions such as other dogs were nearby but at a distance. So she could get there with our methods I think.

She had some problems at home again soon after this and found a behaviourist. I wasn't there for the consult and so my opinion can be based only on what she recounted. So I won't comment on this.

One visit is never going to solve her problems so I suggested she call the behaviourist back or seek other professional help. When I called today she hadn't done this yet.

I think I will ask her to read this post and all the advice. My friend needs to tackle the training herself and I believe she can. Happy to support her.

About the headcollars.... learnt a bit and I agree with cavNrotts advice. The Halti is very similar to the Gentle Leader but the former is fitted a bit looser round the muzzle.

Also wanted to say that I read last night (and I am in this group btw), some trainers can use the halti to teach the behaviour and then end up on a flat collar eventually. It was just pointed out that these trainers have some other skills using the halti so they can be successful. A dog should not be able to lunge at all while in a good halti, maybe that is one of the skills we are talking about. I can imagine if the dog gets a run up it would jerk the neck. The idea is you control the dog and its muzzle so how could it be able to lunge.

And the Gentle Leader is fitted so that the strap round the muzzle can be stretched all the way to the area where the nose mucosa stops and the hair begins. This is fairly loose and the dogs can carry tugs and drink etc thru their mouths. So it is not too restrictive. Most dogs don't like it as they are not introduced properly or it just pisses them off as it stops them doing what they want. I just thought since the dog ate my GL there might be a better choice for a big dog.

Thank you all for your help. As always it is very interesting.

Let you know how it goes.

[Salukifan]

Skip:

My friend needs to tackle the training herself and I believe she can. Happy to support her.

Your friend needs to be started on this journey by a qualified trainer who can SHOW her what she needs to do. A few one on one lessons from a decent trainer would be a good start.

She has months of learned behaviours to undo. All the good will in the world will not be enough for a novice handler to conquer that.

[persephone]

Skip:

My friend needs to tackle the training herself and I believe she can. Happy to support her.

Your friend needs to be started on this journey by a qualified trainer who can SHOW her what she needs to do. A few one on one lessons from a decent trainer would be a good start.

She has months of learned behaviours to undo. All the good will in the world will not be enough for a novice handler to conquer that.

yes.

Your friend sounds as if she really wants to do it alone - but it's like repairing a car/computer , etc . Without a professional showing you what goes where- and how they connect - there could be some interesting and dangerous things happen in the operation!

Please encourage her to use the professional's knowledge to teach her the skills needed. Then she & pup can continue the journey :)

[Kavik]

I would also recommend having them get some help from a trainer. Lunging at other dogs, if it then also includes some frustration at not being allowed to get to the other dog, can lead to aggression towards other dogs eventually, even if it is not aggressive now. This is from experience with Zoe .

[skip]

Oops sorry. Led you all astray. Easy to see how what you post can be taken other than the way you meant.

You are all right of course but by my comment I should have said " My friend should take responsibility for her dogs lack of training and follow the advice given to her by a good trainer or behaviourist. I will support her effort."

She actually doesn't want to do it alone, its more she doesn't know how to fix the problem. There are plenty of things she could be doing to get going on this.

I meant she needs to get motivated to fix this behaviour herself! I can't push her into it. THou I will probably nag her again before training Wed. We can always encourage.

Thanks for your help everybody.

[cavNrott]

Skip, I think if your friend feels confident that one on one training sessions will work for her, she'll go with it. She needs a good, experienced trainer and she'll realise fairly quickly that it's she who isn't quite getting it. Dogs catch on quickly, we humans take a little longer. Once she 'gets' this she'll probably be motivated and will pay close attention to what the trainer is talking about.

It doesn't matter which training tool is used. I chose a trainer who was very experienced with a Halti. I am 4ft 9" and weigh 44kg and I had a young exuberant, very strong, pulling Rottweiler who weighed more than I did. I thought the Halti would allow me the control to prevent my dog from pulling because I couldn't train her if I couldn't control her. I wanted a training tool that would convince her that pulling was not in her best interests and would get her nowhere. It worked out well and I ended up with a very well trained dog who walked on a flat (Martingale) collar.