Guest donatella Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) I'm posting this on behalf of a friend and told her to keep an eye on all the responses. She and her sister (adults) recently purchased Pom pups from a reputable breeder. They are litter brothers. When the breeder dropped them off she mentioned that the littlest one (my friends boy) had a heart murmur picked up by her vet and not to worry it should go away by keep her posted. My friend took the pup to the vets on arrival for a general health check and again heart murmur picked up but said not to worry it should sort itself out. The problem is when the 2 boys play the little one with heart murmur isn't as energetic, tires easily and is more lethargic then his brother. The question is now do these things fix themselves? Not really something you want to deal with when you pick up your new pup you've waited months for. He is 10 weeks old. DOL wisdom please help she's worried and this isn't my area of expertise. Edited July 21, 2014 by donatella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'm no expert but it sounds like it's a high grade murmur if he is tiring easily, or that there is something else wrong with the heart. When my cat died of heart failure, the first sign was what appeared to be a murmur. Low grade murmurs that resolve on their own do not cause issues in humans or canines. I can't imagine this one will 'fix itself'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Is it possible that the "tired" one is just a quieter, calmer puppy in general? Lots of puppies do have innocent heart murmurs but I would be checking in with the breeder pronto on what they plan to do if this continues. And it sounds like it might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 A diagnosed heart murmur a pup who is noticeably smaller a pup who tires quickly a pup who seems lethargic To me this does not bode well - and I will question this pup being sold . Did your friend really NOT know this until said pup was dropped off at the house? IF I had pups to sell , there is no way I would take one to the buyer if I had found out about a murmur just recently .... ( however, if I wanted rid of the pups , I would , as I know once seen/held , buyer would NOT want to part with it ) Cynical maybe - , sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) sometimes as very young babies slight abnormalities can be detected in pups that appear otherwise healthy and energetic, usually by the second vac or check up it can no longer be detected.. The pups that are lethargic, weigh less, have a weedy appearance and have a murmur detected are usually them one's that requiring euthing. At that age and with those symptoms, I would be returning the puppy to the breeder for a full refund. Edited July 21, 2014 by WreckitWhippet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Thanks guys helpful advice. It's a bit unfair he was dropped off with defect as now he is part of the family even though it's only been a few days. I might suggest a specialist visit to investigate further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The only way to know what is really going on is with a heart ultrasound - I'd do that so I knew what I was dealing with. It cost me approx $400 from memory and was arranged through my usual vet (visiting specialist). How sad for the new owners :-( not a great start for the pup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 It's a bit unfair he was dropped off with defect as now he is part of the family even though it's only been a few days. the cynic in me says that the breeder did that purposely Hope to be proven wrong. It may be a good plan to, ASAP , check out "the fine print" regarding this pup - is there a health clause, or a 'cooling off period' or anything in print stating that the breeder knew of the murmur? is the breeder amenable to paying for a scan /ultrasound (or paying part) so that both parties know exactly where they stand ? The new owners will then know if they will be paying out for vet bills ..and have heartache ... or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 A breeder shouldn't just turn up and drop a pup off with anything including a heart murmur - should have been informed prior to this so they could make an informed decision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 A breeder shouldn't just turn up and drop a pup off with anything including a heart murmur - should have been informed prior to this so they could make an informed decision agreed, and to go one step further the breeder should have vet notes etc available to the potential owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Pup's new vet has said not to worry. If he's the smaller pup, he'll be taking a pounding from big brother. That would see him tire earlier, especially if he's the quieter pup. He may be being bullied by his litter mate - it happens. I'd be very keen to ensure that he gets enough rest. The only way to know the severity of the murmur is to go back to the vet to seek further information and possibly a referral. Sounds necessary to put minds at rest at the very least. Edited July 21, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flame ryder Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Pup's new vet has said not to worry. If he's the smaller pup, he'll be taking a pounding from big brother. That would see him tire earlier, especially if he's the quieter pup. He may be being bullied by his litter mate - it happens. I'd be very keen to ensure that he gets enough rest. The only way to know the severity of the murmur is to go back to the vet to seek further information and possibly a referral. Sounds necessary to put minds at rest at the very least. I agree. While it is interesting to hear others experiences and opinions on heart murmurs, read with interest but at the end of the day the vet is the one to listen to. He/she would know best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2boxer Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I had a pup with a heart murmur, my vet did say that sometimes they can disappear, usually by 12 week check up. His didn't and we arranged an ultrasound, three out of four of his heart valves were affected and he would probably have issues later in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*kirty* Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 at the end of the day the vet is the one to listen to. He/she would know best. I wouldn't be taking the word of a GP vet in this situation - the pup needs to see a specialist to find out exactly what is going on. A mild heart murmur should be asymptomatic. This pup is showing signs of something more sinister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Sometimes those "puppy" murmurs are gone around 12 weeks. Sometimes they never go, and sometimes they cause no ill effects. I don't think it was very good of the breeder to drop off a pup with a murmur. I don't think the pup should have been sold at all. If the murmur subsides, it can then be sold. As the owner, it is now probably sensible to take the vet's advise - and wait a few weeks. However if it hadn't disappeared in a few weeks I would be re turning for a refund. Magnus the cocker was supposed to have a puppy murmur - it never went away, although he was no affected, and led a long and busy life. I gave a relation a Cav pup I bred with a congential murmur - it didn't go away either, he is 14 now, and just recently began on heart medication. I would never sell a pup with any sort of murmur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightstar123 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I agree that the breeder should have informed the owner about the murmur, prior to dropping it off. The two most likely possibilities are an innocent murmur or a congenital defect. An innocent murmur is usually soft (grade 1-3) and disappears by the time the animal is 4-6 months of age. An echocardiogram will reveal any structural problems in the heart, but this is expensive and so I would probably wait to see if the murmur resolves as the pup grows, especially if two vets have already said that it sounds like an innocent murmur. If it were me I would return the pup for a refund but I understand how quickly one can become attached! Fingers crossed for an innocent murmur - less energy and smaller size are non-specific symptoms and may not relate to the murmur at all (or even be abnormal for this pup). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The breeder should have informed the puppy buyer and given her a choice rather than just dropping the puppy off. Is this a registered breeder? I query this as many breeders will not sell litter mates to one buyer unless they know the person is very dog experienced. My boy Cavalier was diagnosed with a grade 1.5 heart murmur at 5 1/2yo. He is now 10yo and his murmur is now graded as 2 to 2.5. I recently had his heart xrayed and that looked reasonably ok but not perfect. He needs no medication and is not coughing or showing any signs of tiredness due to his murmur. My 9yo girl Cavalier was diagnosed with a murmur just last week. It was graded as 1.5 to 2. She is a very energetic dog and shows no sign of slowing down. Her murmur was not discovered when she had a health check last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Thank you for all the advice I've given her the link to read through it. Yes the breeder is registered and has been breeding for a long time I do believe will do the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airedaler Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I think I would be returning the pup. New owners need to get over the emotion that they love this puppy after a few days and don't want to see it go back. If they sent it back they would forget about it pretty soon particularly if they had a new healthy pup. I do however, have a 12 year old that has had a heart murmur since he was a youngster but he has never been on medication and does not know what the word stop means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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