Things Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Think that comes down to bad (or lack of) training more than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Think that comes down to bad (or lack of) training more than anything. Yes. My dogs don't pull so it doesn't affect how they walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 our dogs have always worn collars ..and in my many years of training/living with, and working with dogs at a vet clinic - have (luckily) yet to encounter an injury such as damage to larynx etc from a collar. It's interesting learning about harnesses ..and how things work when using them . :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yonjuro Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Regardless of whether you use a collar or harness - neither should be used to "control" direction. Ideally they are only used for just for safety and the dog should be walking loosely by your side. Our trainer had us holding the lead against my lower stomach and never to move the lead to direct the dog. I know this is easier said than done :D I know harnesses are polarising but I just think people should use the tool that works best for them and their dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I walk both my dogs in harnesses. They used to be front attached but now don't need them as neither of them pull or very rarely on a normal walk. The only time I have them in a collar is if it's just a short walk or walking between events at agility trials, where they will sometimes get pretty excited & jump & pull & spin...& that makes me shiver, because I know it must be hurting their throats. I don't let them run in their harnesses...I take them off for free running, & I also do that if they have a collar on as I worry they will get caught up on something. If it's in a public place, I have to leave the collars on. the other thing I like about harnesses, is if they meet another dog, if they are in collars, then they present more as a threat then if they have harness on....if you understand what I am saying. Lastly, one of my guys is a real escape artist from collars & so quick...even with limited slip ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Things Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'm mainly wanting to try a harness because the clip on the lead is rubbing a big patch of guard hairs off the side of my boys neck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Regardless of whether you use a collar or harness - neither should be used to "control" direction. Ideally they are only used for just for safety and the dog should be walking loosely by your side. Our trainer had us holding the lead against my lower stomach and never to move the lead to direct the dog. I know this is easier said than done :D I know harnesses are polarising but I just think people should use the tool that works best for them and their dog. Good post and I completely agree - but the problem is the number of people you see yanking their dogs around by the neck who have never heard of loose lead walking. My Sarah is a loose lead walking expert - she walks beautifully and a number of trainers have commented how well she does it for an old girl. But as an old Speech Pathologist who has dissected damaged larynxes and after all old Mac's problems I won't go back to collars. For me its not worth the risk. But each to their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) our dogs have always worn collars ..and in my many years of training/living with, and working with dogs at a vet clinic - have (luckily) yet to encounter an injury such as damage to larynx etc from a collar. It's interesting learning about harnesses ..and how things work when using them . :) Don't disbelieve you at all Perse. And I agree the evidence isn't there. But I think it also gets missed unless its respiratory crisis time - and then in the emergency treatment to save the dog the 'why' question doesn't get asked. The number of GOLPP dog owners who tell similar stories of missed diagnoses over long periods of time is worrying. Not once has anyone ever asked the 'why' question around Mac's laryngeal paralysis. And from my perspective I've been shocked at how little vet after vet seems to know about and recognise LP/AP/GOLPP, understand laryngeal pathology and how they are connected and managed. Happened again on Saturday night - really nice young emergency vet who was sure Mac's problems were spinal cord/neurological only - didn't seem to understand LP/GOLPP or polyneuropathy and doubted me that I needed (actually insisted on) ABs - until I insisted on X-rays and he saw the films (and I very politely showed him he was not just looking at normal spine and cord). The ABs were the key to Mac's recovery - not a CT or MRI two days later. So back to collars and leads - it seems to me that collars are so much an accepted part of life with dogs (and such big business?) that no-one questions them - except some anecdotal net discussion. And what I don't understand is why we seem to 'get' that collars and leads around our own necks are dangerous but apart from minor anatomical differences (and they are minimal), we don't question doing the same to our dogs? Personally, I think its high time the question was asked and some studies done to give us all better information on the use of collars and leads - and harnesses for that matter. But as I said - each to their own. Edited July 21, 2014 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 WM - yes ... it will be interesting to see what the next years bring in teh way of 'dog wear' :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gila Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I have to use a harness on Spence because of laryngeal paralysis, and I don't like it. He walks nicely by my side on a loose leash, but it is harder to move him along again after a 'sniff n pee' stop. I used to just give him a quick pop on the leash (not a harsh correction!) to get him moving, but that doesn't work so well with a harness. He's also going deaf, so a verbal "come on!" is pretty ineffective too. I find the harness doesn't fit as well as a collar also. And I'm not convinced that collars cause laryngeal paralysis, otherwise I think there'd be a hell of a lot more dogs with the condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 So gila, not trying to be provocative but if you don't think collars are a problem why aren't you using them if you prefer them? Or has he had a tie-back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gila Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 He's had tie back surgery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Ah! So surgeon's instructions. Odd isn't it - they recommend no collars post-surgically but not as a possible preventative. As I said earlier I have no firm evidence - just many years experience with human laryngeal disease management. If surgeons are recommending against collars post-surgically then its a very small leap to preferring not to use them at all IMO - but happy to agree to disagree. Each to their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yonjuro Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Ah! So surgeon's instructions. Odd isn't it - they recommend no collars post-surgically but not as a possible preventative. As I said earlier I have no firm evidence - just many years experience with human laryngeal disease management. If surgeons are recommending against collars post-surgically then its a very small leap to preferring not to use them at all IMO - but happy to agree to disagree. Each to their own. For what it's worth, what you are saying makes perfect and logical sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I use a harness if I want my dogs to pull. I love harnesses and use them frequently, but not for training loose leash walking. There are many great reasons to use harnesses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 our dogs have always worn collars ..and in my many years of training/living with, and working with dogs at a vet clinic - have (luckily) yet to encounter an injury such as damage to larynx etc from a collar. It's interesting learning about harnesses ..and how things work when using them . :) Don't disbelieve you at all Perse. And I agree the evidence isn't there. But I think it also gets missed unless its respiratory crisis time - and then in the emergency treatment to save the dog the 'why' question doesn't get asked. The number of GOLPP dog owners who tell similar stories of missed diagnoses over long periods of time is worrying. Not once has anyone ever asked the 'why' question around Mac's laryngeal paralysis. And from my perspective I've been shocked at how little vet after vet seems to know about and recognise LP/AP/GOLPP, understand laryngeal pathology and how they are connected and managed. Happened again on Saturday night - really nice young emergency vet who was sure Mac's problems were spinal cord/neurological only - didn't seem to understand LP/GOLPP or polyneuropathy and doubted me that I needed (actually insisted on) ABs - until I insisted on X-rays and he saw the films (and I very politely showed him he was not just looking at normal spine and cord). The ABs were the key to Mac's recovery - not a CT or MRI two days later. So back to collars and leads - it seems to me that collars are so much an accepted part of life with dogs (and such big business?) that no-one questions them - except some anecdotal net discussion. And what I don't understand is why we seem to 'get' that collars and leads around our own necks are dangerous but apart from minor anatomical differences (and they are minimal), we don't question doing the same to our dogs? Personally, I think its high time the question was asked and some studies done to give us all better information on the use of collars and leads - and harnesses for that matter. But as I said - each to their own. I can certainly feel the difference in dogs that pull on a collar vs no pulling- they can be quite asymmetrical in musculature in both quantity and quality and range down to subtle changes. Although most dogs that pull do have some evidence of it although it may be subtle. So if that is going on then there would be a change in forces on the underlying structures. I do agree that a harness does less to the dogs neck- but important to then look at the other structures so you don't rob peter to pay paul. Studies would be amazing!! I have lots of different harnesses and collars and it is my cues that tell them if i want them to pull or not when they are in a harness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) I do agree that a harness does less to the dogs neck- but important to then look at the other structures so you don't rob peter to pay paul. Studies would be amazing!! Quite agree Jumbaar - I think as Perse said earlier that we need much more information about all sorts of restraints/collars/leads/harnesses etc. And I've been careful to say all along that I don't have evidence - but certainly some empirical biomechanical studies would be very helpful indeed. And until that happens my gut tells me mine are safer in harnesses than collars. Until you've (the general 'you've) had a dog almost die a miserable death through slowly increasing suffocation as a result of laryngeal paralysis, while you stand by helpless it will be hard to understand my high level of caution. Edited July 21, 2014 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I use harnesses for travelling in cars, getting my dogs to pull and for my old Dobermann who had Wobblers and a very sore neck. If a dog is trained correctly they won't pull or hit a lead so it shoudl not matter if they are in a collar, a harness or anthing else. I don't use harnesses as I have seen many rubbing issues and I don't like using something that may impeed my dogs movement. My dogs don't wear collars unless out and about/at the beach. No way I would use a harnesss at the beach. So it is rare my dogs are walked on lead. If tracking etc I would use harness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 An unlikely benefit of walking on harness occurred to me this evening on our walk. My three walk in Easy Walk front attach harness with Quinn on one lead and the two boys on a coupler on the other lead. As we were walking down the footpath we often walk along a big Dane type dog came racing out into the back yard of the house that backed onto the road we were on, barking and bouncing and carrying on. The top of his head was level with the top of the chain link fence when he was standing with four feet on the ground! Fortunately the back yard was higher than street level (as in the ground level he was on was about waist height on me). So he would have had about a 2m drop from the top of his fence to the ground on our side, but if I was his owners I don't think I'd rely on him knowing that. Anyway, we continued on past and he stayed in the yard but I did think, if he'd jumped out I could have reefed my two boys up on their one leash and chucked them over his fence to get them out of his way, leaving just me and Quinn. I wouldn't want to do that to them by their collars :) In all seriousness, I actually have grabbed Saxon by the harness and held him aloft over my head when I was grabbing him out of the mouth of a much bigger dog who decided he was prey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 SG that's interesting - I hadn't thought of that. But come to think of it I do use the harness handle a lot - really helps guiding Mac and Sarah out of the back-seat of the car and controlling them on the footpath. I have noticed that some bigger dogs do seem to think an old wobbly dog like Mac would be a tasty morsel as well. Nothing has happened as I'm pretty wary but if it does the harness handle will be very handy. Will also be interesting to see if the Convert harness gives me better control as well as better support for him. Hmn... Well see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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