Loose Lead Walking

[The Spotted Devil]

Maybe use a different variation of her name....Dee vs Didi?

[Amax-1]

SG, with the correction, it's a small pop paired with a firmish uh-uh and then a reward/praise for easing tension.

It's best not to correct as handler punishment, that's why before the dog reaches the end of the leash turn around quickly and walk in the opposite direction and let her self correct and say nothing. When she turns around to follow after the correction, say "here" excitedly and ramp her up yippee who hooo!!! and make her excited to come to you and reward that, make it a game to catch up to you so she thinks it's fun and rewarding. That builds handler focus by elevating drive and makes the handler much more fun than darting off for a sniff. The correction interrupts the drive to go sniffing and the reward creates the fun. Couple the two together and the dog learns to focus and be aware of where you are heading. The dog doesn't fear or avoid correction, they think it's a game of catching them out on direction change without them paying attention.

Also, when you turn around and the dog turns and you call "here" excitedly and reward when she catches up, that reinforces the "here" command so in time, the "here" command has real meaning and eventually the dog can be sniffing and you command "here" and the dog will shoot back to you as fast as she used to dart off and sniff.

You can stand still until she realises that unless she backs it up, you are not moving forward, but that's boring so the dog's response will be suppressed......if you ramp her up in drive, she will turn back to you much faster with greater enthusiasm to be rewarded. :)

Edited July 19, 2014 by Amax-1

[dididog]

SG, with the correction, it's a small pop paired with a firmish uh-uh and then a reward/praise for easing tension.

It's best not to correct as handler punishment, that's why before the dog reaches the end of the leash turn around quickly and walk in the opposite direction and let her self correct and say nothing. When she turns around to follow after the correction, say "here" excitedly and ramp her up yippee who hooo!!! and make her excited to come to you and reward that, make it a game to catch up to you so she thinks it's fun and rewarding. That builds handler focus by elevating drive and makes the handler much more fun than darting off for a sniff. The correction interrupts the drive to go sniffing and the reward creates the fun. Couple the two together and the dog learns to focus and be aware of where you are heading. The dog doesn't fear or avoid correction, they think it's a game of catching them out on direction change without them paying attention.

Also, when you turn around and the dog turns and you call "here" excitedly and reward when she catches up, that reinforces the "here" command so in time, the "here" command has real meaning and eventually the dog can be sniffing and you command "here" and the dog will shoot back to you as fast as she used to dart off and sniff.

You can stand still until she realises that unless she backs it up, you are not moving forward, but that's boring so the dog's response will be suppressed......if you ramp her up in drive, she will turn back to you much faster with greater enthusiasm to be rewarded. :)

Thanks for explaining that, the turning around method makes more sense now :) We have obedience tomorrow, not sure how that's going to go as she is usually a bit pully but I'll get there early and settle her down. In the class she's fine it's just walking around the grounds before and sometimes after which can be bad. At least everybody there can relate to me acting like a crazy dog lady!

[Amax-1]

SG, with the correction, it's a small pop paired with a firmish uh-uh and then a reward/praise for easing tension.

It's best not to correct as handler punishment, that's why before the dog reaches the end of the leash turn around quickly and walk in the opposite direction and let her self correct and say nothing. When she turns around to follow after the correction, say "here" excitedly and ramp her up yippee who hooo!!! and make her excited to come to you and reward that, make it a game to catch up to you so she thinks it's fun and rewarding. That builds handler focus by elevating drive and makes the handler much more fun than darting off for a sniff. The correction interrupts the drive to go sniffing and the reward creates the fun. Couple the two together and the dog learns to focus and be aware of where you are heading. The dog doesn't fear or avoid correction, they think it's a game of catching them out on direction change without them paying attention.

Also, when you turn around and the dog turns and you call "here" excitedly and reward when she catches up, that reinforces the "here" command so in time, the "here" command has real meaning and eventually the dog can be sniffing and you command "here" and the dog will shoot back to you as fast as she used to dart off and sniff.

You can stand still until she realises that unless she backs it up, you are not moving forward, but that's boring so the dog's response will be suppressed......if you ramp her up in drive, she will turn back to you much faster with greater enthusiasm to be rewarded. :)

Thanks for explaining that, the turning around method makes more sense now :) We have obedience tomorrow, not sure how that's going to go as she is usually a bit pully but I'll get there early and settle her down. In the class she's fine it's just walking around the grounds before and sometimes after which can be bad. At least everybody there can relate to me acting like a crazy dog lady!

She's overwhelmed with excitement and distraction which is pretty normal for a young dog and they tend to do that, so building handler focus will reduce that tendency making yourself more exciting and desirable than the environment. Dogs who like toys and balls for reward are a bit easier to focus in distractions than food driven dogs....toy reward is something else to try if she likes that :)

[Things]

My pup at the moment is exactly as you describe, around lots of people he'll stick like a magnet, when walking down the street he'll sorta be on and off, then around other dogs he just goes insane. But upping the rewards is definitely the way to go. I make my own liver treats and go through about 2 livers a week just rewarding him to walk nicely. As a result though he walks without watching where he's going, just staring at my hand the whole time :laugh:. Interestingly enough my father works in defence, and says when he sees the dogs in training they do exactly that. However you don't really notice the subtle differences in their walking style. When he was younger he'd drag for sure, but now, even though he does still like being out ahead, I don't have to tense my arm at all to keep him back, he kinda just keeps that slight bit of tension there and sticks with it. If he knows I have a treat he'll stick to my side quite reliably, walking perfectly beside me. As they get older though I'd imagine the food dependency will wear off a bit. My boy doesn't care for toys at all, but he'll do anything for food :)

Edited July 20, 2014 by Things

[Amax-1]

My pup at the moment is exactly as you describe, around lots of people he'll stick like a magnet, when walking down the street he'll sorta be on and off, then around other dogs he just goes insane. But upping the rewards is definitely the way to go. I make my own liver treats and go through about 2 livers a week just rewarding him to walk nicely. As a result though he walks without watching where he's going, just staring at my hand the whole time :laugh:. Interestingly enough my father works in defence, and says when he sees the dogs in training they do exactly that. However you don't really notice the subtle differences in their walking style. When he was younger he'd drag for sure, but now, even though he does still like being out ahead, I don't have to tense my arm at all to keep him back, he kinda just keeps that slight bit of tension there and sticks with it. If he knows I have a treat he'll stick to my side quite reliably, walking perfectly beside me. As they get older though I'd imagine the food dependency will wear off a bit. My boy doesn't care for toys at all, but he'll do anything for food :)

Training and handling operational and apprehension dogs, control is critical, not only aside from the paperwork and facing the music if dog and handler stuffs up, there is a danger aspect as the dogs are trained to bite people so handler control extends beyond a nice obedience performance or causal loose leash walk and the dogs ability to focus on the handler is the essence to achieving a high level of control. if you call a dog off a deployment for instance, the return is where the reward and praise is at so the dog learns that getting called off a deployment is an awesome opportunity to have fun with the handler. Without that control and the high drive level the dog is at to apprehend someone, you can't stop them easily. On a note of danger if the dog is deployed and someone else comes into the frame could even be a child appearing into the dogs path, the dog MUST immediately abort on command and return to the handler, so all theses focus games adds to the reliability of the dog in the final product and using these focus games with a pet dog makes a fantastic well controlled pet you can technically throw your leash away in the end, just depends upon how much control you want to train for. :)

[Simply Grand]

My pup at the moment is exactly as you describe, around lots of people he'll stick like a magnet, when walking down the street he'll sorta be on and off, then around other dogs he just goes insane. But upping the rewards is definitely the way to go. I make my own liver treats and go through about 2 livers a week just rewarding him to walk nicely. As a result though he walks without watching where he's going, just staring at my hand the whole time :laugh:. Interestingly enough my father works in defence, and says when he sees the dogs in training they do exactly that. However you don't really notice the subtle differences in their walking style. When he was younger he'd drag for sure, but now, even though he does still like being out ahead, I don't have to tense my arm at all to keep him back, he kinda just keeps that slight bit of tension there and sticks with it. If he knows I have a treat he'll stick to my side quite reliably, walking perfectly beside me. As they get older though I'd imagine the food dependency will wear off a bit. My boy doesn't care for toys at all, but he'll do anything for food :)

Do some research on randomising your rewards, that's how you wean off treating every time and avoid the dog only performing when it knows you have treats. It basically the pokes principle, if they're never quite sure when they are going to get the reward but it comes often enough to keep them trying to earn it , they'll keep the behaviour basically indefinitely.

Another way I attempt to explain it in class:

If you were playing a poker machine and you kept hitting the button again and again and not winning, you'd think this is dumb, I'm gonna go and get a drink instead (stop the behaviour and do something else more rewarding).

If every single time you hit the button you got $10 after a while you'd go I feel like getting a drink, I'll come back later to get some more $10 coz I know whenever I feel,like pushing the button I'll get my $10. (Again, stop the behaviour to do something else rewarding).

But, as with real pokies, if you push the button a few times then win something, then a few more times and win something else, then lots of times and start to get frustrated but then win a big amount then a few more times and win again then you're highly likely to think ok, I'll just try a bit longer before I leave to go and get a drink because I'm never sure when I'm going to win something but its often enough to keep me trying! (Continue offering the behaviour in the hope that this next time will win you something, and find it really rewarding when you do win something :) )

[dididog]

She's overwhelmed with excitement and distraction which is pretty normal for a young dog and they tend to do that, so building handler focus will reduce that tendency making yourself more exciting and desirable than the environment. Dogs who like toys and balls for reward are a bit easier to focus in distractions than food driven dogs....toy reward is something else to try if she likes that :)

Didi is also pretty toy driven, I will usually do training sessions with a ball though obviously I won't be able to throw it for her when she is on a lead. All our tug toys are getting a bit manky so I might go get a good one and only use it for walks so that it's extra special and exciting :)

[dididog]

Lil update.

So I've really taken our walks, even around our local area back to basics and pretty much don't use corrections rather stopping or turning around and gaining her attention. I've noticed improvements in our normal walking and now if we hit the end of the lead she will walk back to me and around me so she is back on my left side for the most apart. Other times I will have to stop and wait for her to stop being distracted but she doesn't try to keep pulling once I've stopped, she might try to sniff around her but mostly sits and looks back at me or looks at me and backs up a few steps. Still slow going and our walks are becoming much shorter because her brain is working harder on focusing on me which she does a lot more and I'm finding it slowly easier to pull her focus around distractions. One thing I am worried about is when we do stop or the collar tightens and she sits/comes back to me how will I know that me marking and rewarding these moves toward me are translating as me rewarding her for a loose lead? When we are walking along and she's walking nicely I tell her "nice walkies" and she looks at me for a reward because I mark her for 'nice walkies' when she eases the lead tension but sometimes though I feel like she pulls on the lead so that I'll stop and she can then get a treat for stopping/coming back??

Either way I do think it is paying off. We went to obedience today (which I haven't gone to since we overhauled the loose lead walking) and while she pulled when we first got out of the car she was great on the field and we did a lot more walking around (not heel work, just walking) in class than we normally do. Normally she loves to sniff on this field but I noticed way stronger eye contact with me and being much more responsive to what I wanted and we were on a loose lead for most of the time. By the end of the class though her brain was mush and the walk back to the car was a bit more laborious, stop start most of the way because she just couldn't concentrate and was fed up with listening to me. Then after obedience we went to the pet store to weigh her and I was a bit worried to go in there because it's the same place we did puppy school and everyone there loves her and always gives her treats and pats so normally she loses her mind as soon as we walk in. Today though she was a bit excited as we first walked in and tried to pull but I just asked her to sit and gave her a minute to calm down and asked her to concentrate on me and for nice walkies and she did! She has literally never walked on a loose lead in that store and I don't think it was just because she was tired because we normally go there after obedience to weigh her anyway

[Simply Grand]

Wow, great progress Terri I'm really impressed with your progress, she sounds like such a good dog to work with :)

Now that she's getting the hang of it I'd look at changing your reward schedule a bit to start to show her that now you want a little bit more from her, not just stopping when she feels the pressure on the lead but actually not getting to the point of pressure on the lead. So I would do lots of mark and reward with treats when she is doing nice loose lead walking - so not when she hits the end of the lead and stops but while she's just walking along. Then reduce the value of the rewards she's getting for stopping and coming back to you when she does hit the end of the lead - so rather than a treat every time for that she gets just a 'good girl' and now we walk on.

You can mix that bit up, so when she does it in a low distraction environment you can even just start walking again without saying anything (which is rewarding in itself, moving's more fun than staying still!) and use praise while she's walking along nicely. You still want to give her the higher value food reward fairly regularly when she stops and comes back to you in higher distraction environments so she doesn't slip back to pulling being more rewarding for her.

So you're using your different levels of rewards to show her yes, that's good that you're stopping when you feel that pressure, but what I REALLY want you to do is maintain that nice loose lead :)

You've had pretty quick progress really so far so don't put too much pressure on yourself or Didi!

Edited July 27, 2014 by Simply Grand

[dididog]

Wow, great progress Terri I'm really impressed with your progress, she sounds like such a good dog to work with :)

Now that she's getting the hang of it I'd look at changing your reward schedule a bit to start to show her that now you want a little bit more from her, not just stopping when she feels the pressure on the lead but actually not getting to the point of pressure on the lead. So I would do lots of mark and reward with treats when she is doing nice loose lead walking - so not when she hits the end of the lead and stops but while she's just walking along. Then reduce the value of the rewards she's getting for stopping and coming back to you when she does hit the end of the lead - so rather than a treat every time for that she gets just a 'good girl' and now we walk on.

You can mix that bit up, so when she does it in a low distraction environment you can even just start walking again without saying anything (which is rewarding in itself, moving's more fun than staying still!) and use praise while she's walking along nicely. You still want to give her the higher value food reward fairly regularly when she stops and comes back to you in higher distraction environments so she doesn't slip back to pulling being more rewarding for her.

So you're using your different levels of rewards to show her yes, that's good that you're stopping when you feel that pressure, but what I REALLY want you to do is maintain that nice loose lead :)

You've had pretty quick progress really so far so don't put too much pressure on yourself or Didi!

Thanks SG! I was thinking along the same lines of mixing up the rewards so she doesn't get to dependent on it and to mark the good walkies more (since we are getting them for longer stretches without pulling). I'm a bit worried about moving too fast so will just keep this steady pace up for a bit, even though she's doing so well I'm in no rush. I want to do this properly since I think our first go at it was very shaky in her actually grasping the concept and being able to apply it.

Yeah Didi really is great to work with, she can be a little "what's in it for me?" at times but when you put the work in and make it fun for her she will do anything you want, plus she's very smart and observant and picks things up quickly (which is bad if it's not something you want her to do!)

Edited July 27, 2014 by Terri S.

[hankdog]

Smart girl, I don't work if there's nothing in it for me! Well done on making good progress.

[raineth]

Sounds like you've got her going really well Terri!

[Stressmagnet]

Just bumping because I found this thread helpful. Ernie is really good on leash EXCEPT at the beginning of the walk OR if there's a dog in sight he wants to meet.

I'm doing a combo of snails pace, sit treat and go past, and stuffing him full of treats like a Christmas turkey.

He's now non reactive to squeally ladies, cyclists and joggers so yay Ernie.

Other dogs? Not so much but I'll figure out what works before he has to join The Biggest Loser. :D

[dididog]

Just bumping because I found this thread helpful. Ernie is really good on leash EXCEPT at the beginning of the walk OR if there's a dog in sight he wants to meet.

I'm doing a combo of snails pace, sit treat and go past, and stuffing him full of treats like a Christmas turkey.

He's now non reactive to squeally ladies, cyclists and joggers so yay Ernie.

Other dogs? Not so much but I'll figure out what works before he has to join The Biggest Loser. :D

:laugh: glad my struggles proved helpful for somebody else! Didi's loose lead walking still isn't perfect but she's nice to walk and responsive to me and the lead. She is still however pretty crap if we go somewhere new and exciting due to lack of proofing under distraction because she's developed some fear problems in the last few months and if I took her somewhere new and exciting to try and practice I would spend the whole time having to manage her reactivity so no point going through that stress atm. We also started at a new obedience club where there's new grounds new people new dogs so she gets pretty excited at the start but it dies down pretty quick. She does go into worker mode pretty quickly though and spends way more time looking at me than sniffing the ground like she used to :)