Heads Up More Breed Specific Legislation On The Table

[Steve]

If everyone breeds the same way, judges will have to just get used to it.

Yep - too easy to blame the judges all the time. At the end of the day we are breeding them supposedly for the betterment of the breed.

[cavNrott]

If everyone breeds the same way, judges will have to just get used to it.

I think this might be a 'chicken or the egg' situation.

[RuralPug]

Hmmmm...its all about quality of life for me. I don't consider a brachy breed to have BAS if it doesn't affect their quality of life. It is only a syndrome if it causes problems, in my view. Others may choose to interpret it differently.

For me, the level of BAS that requires surgical intervention in order to lead a normal life is totally unacceptable - and I agree that there are far, far too many examples out there. That is extremely poor breeding. Even more moderate levels of BAS that don't require surgical intervention but require lifestyle modification such as restricted exercise I consider poor breeding.

There are Pugs (and other brachy breeds) titled in flyball and agility and rally-o etc and some of these have their conformation titles as well - it can be done and it is being done. I would like to see ALL breeders aim to produce that quality of life.

If you've mainly only seen poorly bred ones then it doesn't surprise me that you have rarely seen Pugs with good wide nostrils and a good bit of nose (not muzzle but nose) covered by a nose roll so that the face appears flat. They are out there, and the best breeders ensure that their stock do have good wide nostrils and that bit of nose (BTW round lustrous eyes full of fire does NOT mean goggling eyes, no matter what puppy buyers want!) Nor is it impossible to select for good palettes, provided that one is willing to cease breeding from lines that do develop soft palette problems.

Historically, I believe too many breeders of confirmation and.or companion dogs have allowed unacceptable conditions like BAS and HD/ED (and many others) to contaminate their lines in their rush to produce unduly exaggerated features for the conformation ring or for the puppy buying public. It is still happening today, both inside and outside pure breed circles. Not only with brachy breeds.

Yes, the ANKC have recently modified some standards so that they are less likely to be interpreted in a harmful fashion - but this really only affects that tiny proportion of dogs bred for the conformation ring.

We should be aiming for ALL breeders to take as much care and forethought as the best ones - and for the puppy buying public to help enforce that by choosing and researching more carefully.

How to achieve that is what should be the focus of discussion - if we can suggest a template for the brachy breeds, perhaps it can be applied to perceived problems in other breed types as well.

Alternatively, we can just shrug and say it's Somebody Else's Problem ..the ostrich approach .

[ish]

Great post RP

[OSoSwift]

Great post RP

Agreed.

There is also a Pug and a Frenchie with ET titles - that I know of there may be more.

[~Anne~]

I challenge anyone to post a picture here of a pug with good wide nostrils.

[RuralPug]

Just from the first page of google images:

This one I call narrow:

This one I call wide:

There are other examples of both on the page.

[~Anne~]

The second example is acceptable. I'm impressed. They're not fabulous, but they're certainly good. Is this natural or after surgery? I've inly ever seen them open like this after surgery to cut back the nares.

I agree the first isn't acceptable at all though IMO.

Edited July 7, 2014 by ~Anne~

[RuralPug]

And from a vet school perspective:

So I hope that you can see where I'm coming from.

[RuralPug]

The second example is acceptable. I'm impressed. They're not fabulous, but they're certainly good. The first isn't acceptable at all though IMO.

I certainly agree - narrow will produce problems. Here is incredidibly narrow (Frenchie, but I've seen it in Pugs too)

Edited to add - I've seen them natural as in the second pic...but that one is a random Google image so I can't really attest. I would sincerely hope it is natural as the dog is a titled champion overseas (not that I would ever use those light eyes in a stud).

Edited July 7, 2014 by RuralPug

[megan_]

.

Edited July 10, 2014 by megan_

[Steve]

Yes narrow will cause problems but that's just the bits you can see and relatively easy to fix Trachea and Larynx are shortened too plus a whole heap more that impacts on heart and lungs. How is a person who is looking at selecting a dog without problems to know which is the best? Where is the info which tells breeders which dogs have had to have surgery and had problems - and not had problems or produced dogs with problems to enable them to profile a pedigree to select dogs which are best for the breed?

The MDBA is collecting data re health and welfare from owners and some breeders free of charge and adding this info into the pedigree system and putting the good and the bad on the face of the pedigree to enable people coming behind to know what is in the ancestry. In case no one has noticed some breeders often dont like to share such things and will even tell fibs to protect their reputations. How does this help the breed? This is one reason puppy buyers receive free membership and why owners provide more info about what is really going on.

Also in an ideal world those which are champs will have no problems but only providing info re whether a dog is a champ on a pedigree isnt going to help when breeding for health issues.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Steve

[Tay.]

I have friends overseas who compete in high levels of agility with pugs and bostons. It can be done! :)

Edited July 12, 2014 by Tay.

[RuralPug]

Yes narrow will cause problems but that's just the bits you can see and relatively easy to fix Trachea and Larynx are shortened too plus a whole heap more that impacts on heart and lungs. How is a person who is looking at selecting a dog without problems to know which is the best? Where is the info which tells breeders which dogs have had to have surgery and had problems - and not had problems or produced dogs with problems to enable them to profile a pedigree to select dogs which are best for the breed?

The MDBA is collecting data re health and welfare from owners and some breeders free of charge and adding this info into the pedigree system and putting the good and the bad on the face of the pedigree to enable people coming behind to know what is in the ancestry. In case no one has noticed some breeders often dont like to share such things and will even tell fibs to protect their reputations. How does this help the breed? This is one reason puppy buyers receive free membership and why owners provide more info about what is really going on.

Also in an ideal world those which are champs will have no problems but only providing info re whether a dog is a champ on a pedigree isnt going to help when breeding for health issues.

See this is part of the reason I am a proud member! It is a concrete example of putting health and welfare first and foremost so that information is readily available without decades of studying lines in a breed.

[sandgrubber]

I'm absolutely convinced that there are healthy Pugs, Pekes and Frenchies who can make it at agility, etc. Also convinced that it should be possible to increase the health standards of this group of breeds.

Also convinced that the multiple problems -- not just brachy face structure but also spinal problems, inability to whelp freely, eye problems, etc -- tend to go together. Result, breeds with high vet bills and generally short lifespans: also high price tags because these problems limit the number of people willing to breed and increase the costs of breeding.

Seems to me the critical question is whether there are enough breeders making a serious effort to produce robust dogs in the troubled breeds. As Anne and others have noted, steniotic nares are still widespread in the show ring, and the less visible problems remain major problems even from breeders with good reputations.

Can anyone name breeders who are doing well using the strategy of 'a little more nose' . . . and aiming to produce pups who may not fare well in the show ring, but have a high chance of living normal, healthy lives? If there are no such breeders, I don't see much hope for the affected breeds.

[RuralPug]

I'm absolutely convinced that there are healthy Pugs, Pekes and Frenchies who can make it at agility, etc. Also convinced that it should be possible to increase the health standards of this group of breeds.

Also convinced that the multiple problems -- not just brachy face structure but also spinal problems, inability to whelp freely, eye problems, etc -- tend to go together. Result, breeds with high vet bills and generally short lifespans: also high price tags because these problems limit the number of people willing to breed and increase the costs of breeding.

Seems to me the critical question is whether there are enough breeders making a serious effort to produce robust dogs in the troubled breeds. As Anne and others have noted, steniotic nares are still widespread in the show ring, and the less visible problems remain major problems even from breeders with good reputations.

Can anyone name breeders who are doing well using the strategy of 'a little more nose' . . . and aiming to produce pups who may not fare well in the show ring, but have a high chance of living normal, healthy lives? If there are no such breeders, I don't see much hope for the affected breeds.

I could name breeders that are doing this - but I won't because I might miss some that are doing it that I don't know that would not be fair.

Better to tell the puppy buying public the things they should be looking for in the adults already produced by that breeder and in their current broodstock.

The Pugs with a little more nose can fare quite well in the show ring with a nice nose roll covering it.

Please don't confuse a little more nose with a little more muzzle - Pugs/Pekes with a bit of muzzle tend to have jaw and teeth problems that can be devastating.

Japanese Chins are examples of a flat faced breed with no nose roll concealing the nose - if you google pics you will soon notice that some have ludicrously short noses and others do have a bit of nose.

That extra length of nose plus decent nares allow for a better internal construction which really increases the amount of air intake.