Heads Up More Breed Specific Legislation On The Table

[raineth]

I would be interested in the paper too thanks Steve. My Cavaliers are considered to be a brachycephalic breed in some quarters.

What?????

Load of tosh.

Think there is becoming a greater need for people to stand to fight this idiocy

Mesocephalic I think, not brachycephalic.

The term "cephalic" is actually an index used to measure head/skull measurement (width by length). Brachy is short, meso is medium. A Cav would be mesocephalic I believe although I am far from expert on how the measurements are determined.

Of course, cavs are savage beasts..... death by licking is so painful from a cav

They are not looking into it because they think brachycephalic is anything to do with being dangerous; they are looking into it because of the difficulties brachycephalic dogs can have in regards to breathing :)

Edited July 4, 2014 by raineth

[Steph M]

I would be interested in the paper too thanks Steve. My Cavaliers are considered to be a brachycephalic breed in some quarters.

What?????

Load of tosh.

Think there is becoming a greater need for people to stand to fight this idiocy

Mesocephalic I think, not brachycephalic.

The term "cephalic" is actually an index used to measure head/skull measurement (width by length). Brachy is short, meso is medium. A Cav would be mesocephalic I believe although I am far from expert on how the measurements are determined.

Of course, cavs are savage beasts..... death by licking is so painful from a cav

They are not looking into it because they think brachycephalic is anything to do with being dangerous; they are looking into it because of the difficulties brachycephalic dogs can have in regards to breathing :)

I wonder what the percentage of the main popular brachy breeds (frenchies, pugs, cavs etc) are from registered ethical breeders?

Seems to me like they're fighting the wrong people.

How about working with dogs Vic and those doing the right thing and coming down on those who don't, say BYB etc

[megan_]

Registered doesn't mean ethical though. Registered means sitting a test ( though not in all states), paying a fee and breeding from mains registered dogs.

I agree with Steve - the cc's need to be seen to do something. Going to war won't win them anything.

[Steph M]

Registered doesn't mean ethical though. Registered means sitting a test ( though not in all states), paying a fee and breeding from mains registered dogs.

I agree with Steve - the cc's need to be seen to do something. Going to war won't win them anything.

Yes, exactly. That’s why I specified both separately. Hmmm. Doesn’t make me a proud citizen at all.

[Jed]

These are quotes from Ingrid Newkirk (born July 11, 1949) is a British-born animal rights activist, and the co-founder and current president of PETA, the world's largest animal rights organization.

In the end, I think it would be lovely if we stopped this whole notion of pets altogether.

Newsday, 1988February 21

dont use the word 'pet.' I think its speciesist language. I prefer 'companion animal.' For one thing, we would no longer allow breeding. People could not create different breeds. There would be no pet shops. If people had companion animals in their homes, those animals would have to be refugees from the animal shelters and the streets. You would have a protective relationship with them just as you would with an orphaned child. But as the surplus of cats and dogs (artificially engineered by centuries of forced breeding) declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we would return to a more symbiotic relationship enjoyment at a distance.

The Harper's Forum Book, Jack Hitt, ed., 1989, p.223

You don't have to own squirrels and starlings to get enjoyment from them ... One day, we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of animals. [Dogs] would pursue their natural lives in the wild ... they would have full lives, not wasting at home for someone to come home in the evening and pet them and then sit there and watch TV.

The Chicago Daily Herald, 1990March

Source -http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ingrid_Newkirk

It's not about how healthy/unhealthy dogs are it is about AR banning the ownership of pets. It's been going on since before 1988 and dog owners still don't heed the message. AR members are on councils, on RSPCA boards, in government, and they are following their oft stated agenda.

The AKC, which is closer to the action, gets it. No one here does, so the brachycephalic breeds will go the way of the pit bull and short tails (and many previously docked breed breeders).

Many breeders wont be happy to x a pug with a foxie to get longer noses, so they will walk away. Pekingese will probably be banned. Small numerically, few breeders to complain, and of course, no breeders of other breeds will help.

After they are all gone, maybe German Shepherds? Who knows?

Edited July 4, 2014 by Jed

[Steve]

Yeah well the reality is that brachy head breeds are seen as suffering due their conformation and if that isnt dealt with by the CC it will be dealt with via legislation. What ratbags are saying may have some impact but not much in my opinion - you have to fight the science and the veterinarian profession if you want to say its not true .

[Steve]

Also its already in the legislation in Victoria where they can if they want simply add in conditions and genetic issues to be banned without needing to go through a process.

[Jed]

Absolutely.

As it doesn't matter that pit bulls are way down the bite list in Aust. and there has never been a fatal attack on a human by a pitbull, so they are banned.

As scientific evidence shows that banding the tails of newborn pups causes no pain, so it is banned.

As these laws were brought in without much viable opposition, so will further laws against brachycephalic breeds, and further laws against more breeds, will be enacted.

There does not need to be any evidence, we allowed AR supporters into positions of power and now they are in positions to ban or modify anything they like, and make no mistake, they fully intend to do that, until all "companion animals" are "set free".

There is not point bleating about "unethical breeders" or "byb" - it does not matter how healthy or unhealthy the dogs are, tbey are for the chop.

Cavaliers have already been banned in one European country. However, the public (owners) protested so much that the bans were removed.

[VizslaMomma]

They are not looking into it because they think brachycephalic is anything to do with being dangerous; they are looking into it because of the difficulties brachycephalic dogs can have in regards to breathing :)

I was thinking more of the general public who might totally misunderstand the reasons you explained. They could form a poor misconception.

[~Anne~]

The AVAs response, in particular this statement is very telling;

Although so common as to be accepted as normal for brachycephalics, BAOS causes serious physical problems and discomfort for individual dogs.

Breed clubs hold the key to ensuring these breeds are not restricted through education and changing the culture. I've said for years that they need to start now before it's too late.

Edited July 4, 2014 by ~Anne~

[raineth]

They are not looking into it because they think brachycephalic is anything to do with being dangerous; they are looking into it because of the difficulties brachycephalic dogs can have in regards to breathing :)

I was thinking more of the general public who might totally misunderstand the reasons you explained. They could form a poor misconception.

oh, sorry I misunderstood you :)

[~Anne~]

They are not looking into it because they think brachycephalic is anything to do with being dangerous; they are looking into it because of the difficulties brachycephalic dogs can have in regards to breathing :)

I was thinking more of the general public who might totally misunderstand the reasons you explained. They could form a poor misconception.

oh, sorry I misunderstood you :)

And I think I misunderstood the comment as well. I'll edit my post. :laugh:

[_PL_]

Great, I can see it now. More excuses for people to breed brachy crosses because 'they have less breathing problems'.

[Little Gifts]

I'm really confused by this and would appreciate those of you in the know sharing your knowledge. Isn't it breed standards that determine acceptable conformation in these breeds, so that registered breeders (particularly those into showing) are breeding to achieve visual standards that might in some instances result in a health concern for brachy breeds? If this is the case then breed standards would need to be revised and what makes a show dog would need to change. If breed standards have indicated what is acceptable for decades what is a legitimate, registered breeder to do with their breeding stock if all of a sudden those standards change? This would have to occur over a period of time wouldn't it? All you could really do if a dog was considered to have poor conformation is to ensure it was not bred from but how do you enforce that with the BYB's and puppy farmers who are trying to mimic the same look without any genetic principles behind their work? If they don't record anything then it seems no-one can prove anything. How is that fair? How does that fix anything for the dogs?

It keeps going round in circles - the people doing the right thing will be targeted and penalised and the lazy sods making money off companion animals will continue to carry on without a care in the world. Does the govt really want to stop BYB's and puppy farmers and protect abused and neglected dogs? It sure doesn't seem like it to me. They are creating an environment where people who flout the laws already in place will continue to thrive and pretend they are not doing anything wrong. I am starting to get a sense that the govt doesn't want pure bred dogs? They are doing everything they can to make it difficult for people willing to follow the rules.

Edited to add that I am not a supporter of 'beauty' over health. As a shar pei owner I am incredibly lucky with my girl but know of badly bred pei (ones bred to look very cute and wrinkly as pups) who have so many issues it breaks your heart. The people who bred those dogs don't give a toss about their quality of life or what they cost their new owners or that these health issues may have lead to them ending up in rescue, broken and bleeding.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Little Gifts

[RuralPug]

The secretary of the Vic Pug Club has advised me that all the Vic brachy clubs have been working on a response to this for some time, I presume together with Dogs Vic.

It is a fact that not every flat faced dog has BAS, no more than every GSD or golden retriever has HD. But it is true that only flat faced dogs suffer this condition.

Most ethical breeders would support moves to health test and score brood stock for patella health, width of nares etc. But I suspect that it will have about as much impact as regs re hip and elbow scoring have had. Unless the general public know to ask for the parents' scores, then they will continue to buy from non-ethical breeders who do not test.

[Steph M]

And that's where the govt could get off their asses and help educate the public.

That'd be a better start.

[~Anne~]

Every flat faced dog has some degree of BAOS, RuralPug. I'm yet to ever see a Pug irl or an image that doesn't have slits for nostrils for a start. Stenotic nares are one condition of BAOS.

Whilst there seems to me that pedigree pugs have lower incidences of the extremes of BAOS, there is still a lot of them out there. I have a prime example at home.

Edited July 4, 2014 by ~Anne~

[~Anne~]

Little gifts - the real crux of the matter is, you simply cannot breed a brachycephalic head and not have some degree of BAOS. Breeding brachy dogs and cats needs to be done by experts and sadly, breeders don't need to be experts, only registered.

[*kirty*]

I agree that every brachy dog has BOAS to some degree. We deal with it at work every single day, and have special premed and anaesthetic protocols for brachy dogs.

I don't understand how it can be acceptable to breed dogs that can't breathe properly. It is upsetting to watch a dog wake up with an ET tube still in after surgery, with the best airway it's ever had, only to struggle to breathe again once the tube has been removed. The poor dogs have reduced oxygen saturation permanently.

The breed standards are open for interpretation so they don't necessarily need to be changed.

[LisaCC]

Every flat faced dog has some degree of BAOS, RuralPug. I'm yet to ever see a Pug irl or an image that doesn't have slits for nostrils for a start. Stenotic nares are one condition of BAOS.

Whilst there seems to me that pedigree pugs have lower incidences of the extremes of BAOS, there is still a lot of them out there. I have a prime example at home.

I was thinking this earlier, but I admit I haven't met many pugs in real life. The one pug I know with larger nares is my friends and it has had an operation to widen them.

Does anyone know of any examples of naturally open nares in brachy breeds?