Great Decision Matrix For Choosing A Good Breeder

[RuralPug]

I would just like to give kudos to whoever designed this matrix (I am trying to find out)

It is easier to read on this webpage.

I think this is brilliant and a great way for the general public to come to a quick understanding that not all breeders are the same. I may have minor quibbles and niggles here and there but overall I think it is fantastic.

What do others think?

Edited to add the link (thank you MQ!)

Edited June 25, 2014 by RuralPug

[OSoSwift]

I like it, as you say a couple of little things but otherwise very very good.

Troy would it be possible to pin this? I think it has lots of interesting information.

[Queen Maeby]

Thanks RP, what a great idea!

Here it is on the webpage...

http://www.isfoundation.com/news/creatures/avoiding-unethical-breeders-and-what-it-means-rescue

I couldn't see it very well :)

[sandgrubber]

I don't like it much. Too establishment. Too stereotyped.

Where do you fit on the spectrum if you improve the health of the breed and the dogs you produce by choosing healthy stock are going nowhere in the show ring? Or if you are breeding for a functional working dog, and have your own interpretation of the standard which emphasizes temerament and function.

Many breeds are now in bad shape. I think the "Reputable Experienced Breeder" group has played a large role in increasing exaggerated "typey" breed features and decreasing the genetic diversity through offering popular studs.

Clubs are often big on cliques, and if you have conflicts with the powers that be, you are likely to seek minimal involvement.

Edited June 24, 2014 by sandgrubber

[Steve]

I don't like it much. Too establishment. Too stereotyped.

Where do you fit on the spectrum if you improve the health of the breed and the dogs you produce by choosing healthy stock are going nowhere in the show ring? Or if you are breeding for a functional working dog, and have your own interpretation of the standard which emphasizes temerament and function.

Many breeds are now in bad shape. I think the "Reputable Experienced Breeder" group has played a large role in increasing exaggerated "typey" breed features and decreasing the genetic diversity through offering popular studs.

Clubs are often big on cliques, and if you have conflicts with the powers that be, you are likely to seek minimal involvement.

agree.

Problem I think its biased by the person who has written it - and not necessarily what is best for dogs

Edited June 24, 2014 by Steve

[Salukifan]

I think it might be useful to change discussion of the table from "how do I fit into this as a breeder" to "would this assist puppy buyers to avoid the worst kind of breeders".

The answer for me is a resounding "yes".

And the quote that captures the AIM of the table is this:

If you do choose to buy your pet rather than adopt, try to avoid the first three types of breeders

I don't have any argument with that.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[OSoSwift]

Agreed

[mita]

I think there's an overlap with the 'hobby breeder' and the 'reputable experienced breeder'. The breeders I've chosen to get our dogs from... & who I recommend to other pet owners... fit essential elements of both of these.

In fact, it's because they DO combine elements of both that I admire the way they raise and manage their dogs (more towards a home setting) ... as well as contribute in a significant way to the development of the breed. I'd describe them as 'reputable experienced breeders who operate on a hobby level.' That's my choice & there are sound reasons for my getting a purebred companion dog from them.

[Steve]

I think there's an overlap with the 'hobby breeder' and the 'reputable experienced breeder'. The breeders I've chosen to get our dogs from... & who I recommend to other pet owners... fit essential elements of both of these.

In fact, it's because they DO combine elements of both that I admire the way they raise and manage their dogs (more towards a home setting) ... as well as contribute in a significant way to the development of the breed. I'd describe them as 'reputable experienced breeders who operate on a hobby level.' That's my choice & there are sound reasons for my getting a purebred companion dog from them.

yep

[Queen Maeby]

Oh sorry, I misread it :)

Yes, I agree with HW.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Queen Maeby

[VizslaMomma]

I think it might be useful to change discussion of the table from "how do I fit into this as a breeder" to "would this assist puppy buyers to avoid the worst kind of breeders".

The answer for me is a resounding "yes".

And the quote that captures the AIM of the table is this:

If you do choose to buy your pet rather than adopt, try to avoid the first three types of breeders

I don't have any argument with that.

I wondered if you thought of adding this to your Selecting a Show puppy thread?

Edited June 24, 2014 by VizslaMomma

[Jed]

Writes books?

Articles?

Seminars?

Helps define the standard?

Very few people like that, the public would wait 20 years for a pup. Not at all realistic in Aust. Probably not too realistic in USA either.

[Queen Maeby]

Writes books?

Articles?

Seminars?

Helps define the standard?

Very few people like that, the public would wait 20 years for a pup. Not at all realistic in Aust. Probably not too realistic in USA either.

Not realistic in the USA at all... In my experience, many Pug people are still buying their Pugs from back yard breeders. A lot of people support Pug rescue but they don't seem to distinguish between back yard breeders and registered, ethical breeders. It's very disheartening seeing these badly bred Pugs, and so many of them in shelters and in need of rescue.

I think these people are just so desperate to buy a Pug puppy and do it for emotional reasons.

eta

Thanks, I needed to rant about that... It's been bothering me for a while. Excuse me for going so off topic :)

Edited June 25, 2014 by Queen Maeby

[OSoSwift]

NOt every single point is 100% exactly what I would agree with, but I think that majority of it is sound and a good tool in helping people choose a breeder for their next puppy.

I also think hobby/professional breeders do overlap and that is a good thing. The main thing it does is points out some very vaild points on those to avoid.

I shared this on my FB and upset one person who it just so happens has a family member who's 13mo unrego'd bitch is about to have babies. Breed standard, what breed standard?

And also there are many reputable established breeders who are breeding to have very sound dogs that look as they should and can do the function they were bred for. I don't see the issue. There are always going to be a small portion of people who do not do the right thing in all areas, this is a tool to help to try to identify those people.

Edited June 25, 2014 by OSoSwift

[RuralPug]

Oso, yes that's a thought - maybe it should be pinned somewhere puppy seekers can find it. Or should the DOL brains trust perhaps tweak it a little first for local conditions?

Sandgrubber, I see the point you are making and can agree that historically, exaggeration of desired breed features has often created problems for a breed. I personally believe that now is decreasing in kennel club affiliated breeders as genetic knowledge becomes more widespread. I, too, would like to see some provision for ethical breeders outside the breed club/showring spectrum. Breed clubs can sometimes be extremely political and unhelpful to ethical breeders. I think this basically has the aim of turning people away from BYBers, puppy farmers and careless breeders and it has my full support for that reason.

Mita, Steve and Jed, I agree that there is certainly overlap and would perhaps like to see to last two columns renamed to perhaps "Ethical Breeder" and "Doyen Ethical Breeder".

MQ thank you for that link!

HW, yes that is my intent in posting here. I am looking at it as less of a label and more of a guide for Joe Public.

[Queen Maeby]

I think it should include pet shop because a puppy mill and a commercial breeder are going to sell their puppies to a pet shop, not directly to the buyer.

Or do they mean 'pet shop' by commercial breeder? I'm not sure what a commercial breeder is.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Queen Maeby

[megan_]

I think it should include pet shop because a puppy mill and a commercial breeder are going to sell their puppies to a pet shop, not directly to the buyer.

Or do they mean 'pet shop' by commercial breeder? I'm not sure what a commercial breeder is.

Plenty of large scale breeders sell direct to the public - more money that way

[Queen Maeby]

I think it should include pet shop because a puppy mill and a commercial breeder are going to sell their puppies to a pet shop, not directly to the buyer.

Or do they mean 'pet shop' by commercial breeder? I'm not sure what a commercial breeder is.

Plenty of large scale breeders sell direct to the public - more money that way

Oh okay, thanks :)

The definitions need to be clearer. I didn't even know about commercial breeders and I'm not an average Joe Public type of dog owner.

I can't imagine buying a dog from this type of breeder. It's beyond me.

[Sash]

Will definitely bookmark this to share with friends and family deciding where to purchase or adopt a dog from.

Thanks for sharing!

[sandgrubber]

It's simpler to recommend that puppy buyers define their priorities and learn a little about the breed: then ask breeders what their breeding goals are and what they do to achieve them. If health is high on your objectives, as a puppy buyer, ask for evidence that the lines behind the pup are clear or largely clear of common possibly genetic problems (eg, epilepsy, HD/OCD, allergies and skin problems, serious early onset cancers, bloat . . . . as well as problems specific to the breed). If temperament is a big priority, look for stable temperament in the dam and evidence of stable temperament in the sire; look for breeders who temperament test. If you want to show, pay a lot of attention to breed standard.

The stereotyped BYB, puppy mill, or commercial breeder will fail that test.

Mentors are irrelevant. I would prefer someone who reads extensively and thinks critically than someone who follows faithfully in the footsteps of the old guard.

People who live well away from urban centers are unlikely to be very active in formalized dog activities, unless they are dedicated showies. This doesn't detract from the quality of their dogs. They may be the best source for working dogs.