Breeders Should...

[Queen Maeby]

Great post OsoSwift

What I really like about the Victorian Pug community is that a Pug rarely, if ever, ends up in a shelter because breeders work so hard behind the scenes to find the Puggies a home. It's a wonderful, supportive community and I'm proud to be a part of it as a Pug owner.

Well that's my experience of it anyway :)

[JulesP]

Can I ask what 'rally around' means?

It's nice to have a bit of encouragement and emotional support, but when the person who is actually doing the dirty work of getting these dogs out and looking after them is asking for something a lot more tangible..ie, funds, transport, housing, advertising etc. How is 'rallying around' equate to doing much of anything at all? It's all piss in the wind and does nothing to really help. Unless by rallying around you mean that they actually do something rather than offer verbal support and little more.

I'm not really qualified to comment at all, on this topic. I'm just feeling that Leema is coping a kick in the guts when she's feeling like none one else gives a crap.

I for one, am very grateful to Leema.

And I'm am one of those people who, 'wishes I could do more'.

It means do what they have to do until the animal is in a safe place.

[Salukifan]

Haredown Whippets, how many rescue dogs have you been able to get assistance from the breeder (or a breeder of their breed) for?

You said "[m]any breeders assist dogs of their own breeding", but I haven't found one yet. You must've had a much better success rate in rescue.

The Whippet Club of NSW has assisted all Whippets that have been identified as needing care, including ones advertised on the rescue forum here. The rescue organizer is a breeder. Foster carers are breeders. Fund raisers are breeders.

The skinny black girl from Gundagai that MUP posted about? Whippet Club peeps fostered and successfully rehomed her.

One of the most frequent posts in the whippet forum I run is people alerting others to dogs in need or homes looking for a rescue. We take care of our own.

That said, we are not dealing with the numbers confronting some breed rescues. The local sibe rescue (also breeders) are saints IMO.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Steve]

Whether you breed or rescue you have to know at any given time what you can and can't cope with and do regardless of what you want to do. If you don't you end up being on the 6 oclock news because you have more than you and your energy, resources and pocket can cope with. Trying to keep everyone and everything happy without knowing where to say No makes everyone and all animals miserable.

Sometimes things change slowly such as growing old or becoming less healthy and sometimes life crashes in on you and its an instant need for a permanent or temporary change.

What is good for you one day isn't necessarily good tomorrow. People live under all types of situations and few breeders I know have money invested that they don't touch in case one of their dogs come back it he next 15 or so years in case they will need to feed it and vet it etc. Not many I know could chuck money at rescue to help with dogs they haven't bred either. Many of us have restrictions on how many dogs we can have on our properties, so taking in any dog can be a huge problem.

Very recently I have been hit with a pretty good side swipe with one of my son's requiring massive specialist medical treatment that no one could have ever seen coming. Its meant me racing around to get him to appointments and care for him and income that was coming into my household radically reduced. There is massive pressure on and even though if I had to I would still take back one of my Maremma it would be a very huge deal right now.Not everyone has 30 acres and grow their own food so if its hard for me imagine how hard it would be for someone who has had to move to a unit and live on new start because they lost their job etc. How hard does it have to be to get a breeder off the hook without being clubbed as a bad breeder because they cant help in tangible ways?

Even finding a few dollars to help rescue out is money I don't have to give without making something else that relies on me suffer. Bloody hell if one of my older kids needed a donation or even small financial help or somewhere to stay right now I would be looking for how to "rally around" rather than bring them back home and give them money! When I had them I expected to be able to always to be able to help them in tangible ways too. To help my 40 year old son out if he needs it literally takes from my 17 year old to do it. When 6 kids got to 21 and no longer lived at home I moved to a smaller house and my lifestyle changed – should I have kept the big house and not spent my money in case they need to come home or need help between when I had them and when I die ?Should I pay money for homeless children and people I didn't bring into the world and make the ones I did go without? Why do you expect that of a breeder because a dog happens to be their breed? What reason is good enough to get them off the hook and do you have the right to demand they give you their reasons?

People [breeders] should not have to go through their personal situation and reasons as to why right now they can't do what has become expected of them. They shouldn't have to defend themselves for not being able to help when they have done all they can to find great homes for the puppies, most times being support after the pup goes home etc for the dog they bred because the buyer can't keep their dogs. They shouldn't be the ones being asked and expected to pay and help with tangibles it should be the person who has handed over THEIR responsibility and placed the dog in this position.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Steve

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Just to balance things up - I have posted above about some of the good breeders I've come across but they are in the minority, from my experience of contacting many different ones over many years.

I've also contacted breed club rescues about particular dogs, generally rare breeds. They are often not interested if the dog is a certain age or has a medical issue.

There are exceptions to everything, of course but as a fellow rescuer I understand Leema's frustration.

I LOVE Italian Greyhounds and would bend over backwards to assist any Italian in need and that normally includes spending my own money to assist.

I used to believe that if you breed a particular kind of dog - particularly a reasonably rare breed - then you must really like them if not love them and would also want to provide any assistance to one in dire straits (I don't mean taking them into your household as I'm well aware of the danger that a pound dog poses to puppies).

I've learned over the years with many unpleasant conversations (often very insulting to me) and knockbacks - and had to accept - that I'm wrong on that score.

No, I'm not a breeder and never will be but I am an ethical rescuer who always has a dog's best interests at heart. I also have a great deal of experience but none of this is sufficient for some people in the breed world to be prepared to work with me and help a dog.

Most recently I contacted a breed club rescue about a toy sized dog I had rescued aged 7 - they were not very interested and pretty disparaging of my efforts because they were breeders and knew best - I was wondering if they had any homes waiting. They did forward me a home that they had already rehomed to.

This home was keen to take the dog off my hands - retired people - dog would be kept outside 24/7. I was horrified. Will I ever contact this breed club rescue again - no, that's not the first time they've treated me with disdain but I thought I'd give them another chance.

I waited 3 months and rehomed the dog to a couple who have another of the same breed and the dogs have the most fantastic life. I did a yard check, checked references and made the match with the dog's happiness at the core of my decision.

[Steve]

By the way part of my contract is for people to bring the dog back to me if they cant keep it any more but if someone said to me - if I cant keep it will you take it back it would be a no sale.

[Wundahoo]

I rescue dogs of my breed. Having said that, I dont take every one that comes to my attention. I am selective about which dogs come into my care.

I find it upsetting that I HAVE to turn some away but I MUST be practical about it and not let my heart rule my head. Unfortunately there are some that do not fall within the category of "suitable" and so I will not assist in their rehoming. That is left up to the owners or the organisation that has the dog in their possession.

I have one dog here at the moment that was surrendered to me by the owners because he digs HUGE holes in their lawn and garden. He is a very sweet dog and gets along with anyone he has met, both 4 legged and two.

He has been here for over 3 months while I assess him and then teach him to accept being crated at night, because that is mainly when he digs or gets into other mischief.

I have had to microchip him, have him vaccinated, wormed and flea treated and treat his ear infection. I am the one that is paying for all of his medical costs and his upkeep, not his ex-owners, who said that they would contribute to his upkeep while he was here...... yeah, sure...... not a word from them since I picked him up. I am left to pay his upkeep and to rehome him, and of course if he doesnt work out in that home I will also be expected to take him back and find somewhere else for him.

I did not breed this dog but I have become 100% responsible for him. Is this fair ???? I dont think so, but I have decided to do this and when I agreed to take him onto rescue I knew that this would probably be the very familiar pattern of promises from surrendeering owners who quickly disappear after their "problem" has been taken away.

In the same time frame I have also been asked to take on several other dogs (neither of which I bred) but I declined on the grounds that both of these dogs have shown signs of aggression. One has already bitten a child and the other has attacked but not made physical contact. Both of these dogs have major resource guarding issues.

The dog that has bitten a child was not originally from this state but was placed in the home by an eastern states rescue group who were aware of this dog's resource guarding issues when they placed it. Now that its behaviour has escalated to the point that it has bitten, they are very reluctant to take the dog back and do what needs to be done !! I was then contacted because I run rescue for my breed in this state. I refused to accept the dog and voiced the opinion that I believed that this dog was not safe and should be returned to the original rescue group that placed the dog in the first instance. Another local rescue group has taken the dog and is apparently looking for a home for him. He has been advertised on their facebook page as a "sweet boy" !!! My prediction is that he WILL bite again and his behaviour will escalate further.

I am firmly of the belief that this dog should NOT be rehomed but it seems that in spite of it having bitten and also showing other aggressive behaviours, there are some who believe that it should be rehomed yet again.

For some reason these rescue groups now feel that I am not truly committed to rescue because of my refusal to "help" this dog !!!

There are some that simply are NOT suitable to be rehomed and I fail to see why I should be responsible for them, simply because I happen to be someone directly involved in the breed !

I will help a dog if it is temperamentally safe. I will pay for its medical needs and will rehabilitate it IF the dog is one that does not pose a risk to the safety of the community.

I will not be made to feel that I am responsible for the care and up keep of every single dog of my breed. If I run breed rescue in this state I should be able to run it in a fashion that means I can devote the time and care to those dogs which are suitable.

I should not have to run this group as others external to it want it to be run !

My time, resources and funds are limited and as such can only help a certain number. Taking on and placing a dog of dubious or known bad temperament is irresponsible and unfair on all concerned, the dog included, yet there are those who feel that I SHOULD do this.

Edit for S & G.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Wundahoo

[cavNrott]

When every pet shop and BYB breeder is also required to take back every dog they breed/sell then I will expect the same of every registered breeder.

We expect better from our ethical registered breeders than we expect of BYB breeders and pet shops. That's why we buy our pups from registered breeders. I have no expectations of BYB's or pet shops when it comes to rescue. They are beneath respect or expectations.

I do expect a registered breeder to take some responsibility for a dog they bred. I have only ever had one rescue dog of a particular breed who's breeder was able to be identified. The breeder was neither helpful or even interested that a dog they bred was on the PTS list. I was able to take this very nice dog dog and rehomed him 3 months later.

On other occasions assistance was asked of breeders when a dog of their breed was impounded and needed rescue that I couldn't take because I had too many dogs (including rescue dogs)and I was flying under the radar with council restrictions. None the breeders of this breed offered to assist in any way.

[moosmum]

Leema, Sounds like you have just been through a very frustrating and upsetting time. So sorry things have not worked out for all your hard work.

I think you are being very unfair. A good breeder will do all they possibly can to see a dog of their breeding does not end up in trouble, and to get them out of it. I agree there are too few of them, but its very unfair to lump all together because of your recent experiences.

I have seen and been part of breed rescues who go to great lengths to take care of their own breed and crosses of repeatedly here on dol.

I'm sure you must have as well, and your comments would be be very hurtfull to those who do all they can and some time far more than they can easily accomodate with out turning their lives and their families, pets lives upside down.

These people are doing every bit as as much as you, with as much care and compassion.

I can't say if the people you have been dealing with are being reasonable or not. I don't know any of the situation.

Some times what people want to do is just not practical or possible for any number of reasons and you can't be sure those people aren't hurting badly because of it.

Maybe they are just crap breeders who deserve your anger in this instance. There are are far too many of those . But to accuse breeders in general of being the same is just unreasonable when there are so many examples of just the opposite.

P.S. I do think there are far too many breeders who use the pedigree label just to buy legitimacy with out question of their practices or ethics.

Edited June 20, 2014 by moosmum

[RuralPug]

I rescue dogs of my breed. Having said that, I dont take every one that comes to my attention. I am selective about which dogs come into my care.

...

There are some that simply are NOT suitable to be rehomed and I fail to see why I should be responsible for them, simply because I happen to be someone directly involved in the breed !

I will help a dog if it is temperamentally safe. I will pay for its medical needs and will rehabilitate it IF the dog is one that does not pose a risk to the safety of the community.

I will not be made to feel that I am responsible for the care and up keep of every single dog of my breed. If I run breed rescue in this state I should be able to run it in a fashion that means I can devote the time and care to those dogs which are suitable.

I should not have to run this group as others external to it want it to be run !

My time, resources and funds are limited and as such can only help a certain number. Taking on and placing a dog of dubious or known bad temperament is irresponsible and unfair on all concerned, the dog included, yet there are those who feel that I SHOULD do this.

Edit for S & G.

Fantastic post, Wundahoo! Rescuers need to be accountable to society as well and take care NOT to place unsuitable dogs unless they can find a cast-iron safe place for that dog to be rehabilitated - such places are very rare, and should only be used when there is a very good chance of rehab being successful. Quality of life for the dog is very important, and to "save" a dog only to have it spend its life locked up is not, in my opinion, quality of life.

Ososwift, Steve and moosmum - great posts, too!

Leema, you put a great many of your own resources into rescue. I KNOW you are frustrated due to recent events, and I can sympathise. However, not every apple in the barrel is rotten, nor should clean up be forced on those who do not have the resources to undertake it. It is like insisting for example, that every parent take in to their own home an asylum seeker, until that person has established their own household or becomes part of another.

Ethical breeders and rescue can and do work together - this should be encouraged and applauded. Even when frustration is running high due to unethical behaviour on one side or the other, it will only create divisiveness to tar the entire crop, be it rescues or breeders, with the same brush.

[alpha bet]

I also have a clause in my contract that any problems my puppy buyers have they are welcome to contact me to either help with solving problems, rehome or if possible I am happy to take the dog back. This is probably all that can really be expected from any breeder.

Personally I don't want to be involved with the rescue groups any more than I need to - often I find them too judgemental - against breeders, against owners, against other rescues, against RSPCA, against anyone that doesnt confirm to their 'standards or ideals'....

This post just confirms this feeling......

Edited June 20, 2014 by alpha bet

[WreckitWhippet]

I've also come across rescues who call themselves the name of the breed they rescue or something similar, they then take on rescues that are not of the breed their rescue is supposedly about and then refuse help from the official breed club in the state and then have the nerve to complain about how over worked, under appreciated and full of fosters they are.

One breed club in this state has a fantastic co-ordinator, the backing of many breeders and the resources assist pedigree and non pedigree's that are in need of a new home but have been left sitting on the side lines twiddling thumbs.

And then there are posts like this and it leaves you thinking why bother, you can't win either way

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I also have a clause in my contract that any problems my puppy buyers have they are welcome to contact me to either help with solving problems, rehome or if possible I am happy to take the dog back. This is probably all that can really be expected from any breeder.

Personally I don't want to be involved with the rescue groups any more than I need to - often I find them too judgemental - against breeders, against owners, against other rescues, against RSPCA, against anyone that doesnt confirm to their 'standards or ideals'....

This post just confirms this feeling......

My mother phoned last night from Victoria to talk to me about the fact she is considering purchasing a new dog. One of her rescue SWFs died a few months ago, and the other one is lonely. I am always careful to hang back when giving new dog advice to relatives because it's a pretty personal decision and we all have to live with each other. If it were up to me I'd buy her a Cav, but it's not up to me it's up to her. However, it was her who mentioned to me how difficult a very well known local "rescue" was to deal with. She will probably just go to the pound and pick out a little jack x or mini foxie when they come up.

[sparkycat]

Just a thought but what if a breeder suddenly dies and doesn't have family who can cope with breeding dogs/cats- would other breeders step in to help ?

[OSoSwift]

I know of cases where that certainly has happened.

[Diva]

Just a thought but what if a breeder suddenly dies and doesn't have family who can cope with breeding dogs/cats- would other breeders step in to help ?

It happened recently in Borzoi. The breeder's family tried to get help from one source and was rebuffed, so surrendered them to the RSPCA. Then the broader breed community found out, raised funds, got them into foster care and placed them. But one was pts while at the RSPCA for not coping well with the loss and change. Had the other breeders been able to get them earlier that outcome may have been averted, impossible to say.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Diva

[sparkycat]

Just a thought but what if a breeder suddenly dies and doesn't have family who can cope with breeding dogs/cats- would other breeders step in to help ?

It happened recently in Borzoi. The breeder's family tried to get help from one source and was rebuffed, so surrendered them to the RSPCA. Then the broader breed community found out, raised funds, got them into foster care and placed them. But one was pts while at the RSPCA for not coping well with the loss and change. Had the other breeders been able to get them earlier that outcome may have been averted, impossible to say.

Thanks that is great to hear.

[Bjelkier]

Just a thought but what if a breeder suddenly dies and doesn't have family who can cope with breeding dogs/cats- would other breeders step in to help ?

That happened here recently and two other breeders I know took the dogs between them and found them suitable homes.

I know if that was to happen to me the breeders of my dogs and close friends in the breed would take my dogs

Edited June 21, 2014 by Bjelkier

[Gottalovealab]

There is no way I would not take a dog back of my own breeding, would do it without a second thought and i would assume ( and know) ethical breeders would do exactly the same.

Thinking breeders can take on rescue dogs that are their breed or 'look like their breed' is unrealistic. They shouldn't be 'expected' to, their own personal circumstances might not warrant it.

To the OP, it sounds like you've had a rough time with it all lately, which in rescue i can understand, but maybe take a step back and realise what is trying to be said.

Edited to add, I think you need to realise that quite a few posts in here are not from breeders and many are of the same opinion. I have not bred a litter, but i can understand where breeders are coming from.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Gottalovealab

[Rebanne]

Just a thought but what if a breeder suddenly dies and doesn't have family who can cope with breeding dogs/cats- would other breeders step in to help ?

I have no doubt about it in my breed.