huski Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) Huski, my Malinois and your female (my girl is half sister to yours through Hassan. Please correct me if I'm wrong)definately have Terv. and Gr. way back in the 50's. A dog named Xavier a Terv. ('52 Belgian Ring champ) is in my girls pedigree online among others. Yes it will be back there! But I meant if you look at their pedigrees they are registered as mals. Because they are mals and having a coat doesn't make them a Terv :) certainly makes no difference to their working ability. And you are right my girl is out of Hassan too Edited June 17, 2014 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Yes I have also seen a long haired Mal, and he was a BIG Mal as well lol. Quite possibly also related to Huski's and Mal1's dog, from the same breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) Herein lies a problem. When they first had a standard made they were considered to be the one breed, there was much more variety but they standardised it into 4 varieties depending on what region of Belgium they came from. The FCI still consider them to be 4 varieties of the same breed whereas different countries consider them separate breeds. I believe the ANKC first considered them as 4 varieties then moved to consider them 4 breeds and banned unsanctioned crossing of the dogs. But because they are associate members of the FCI (which allows classification due to coat from a litter) they kept a provision in there to allow some crossing of the Belgians. Now, when it comes down to it these days, it's not just coat any more. The Malinois and some Lakenois are not the same in temperament and body structure to the Groenendael and Turvuren. The working Malinois in particular evolved into a different animal to be just a type. Shave a Turvuren it wont make a Malinois. The Malinois became the type offshooting to a more tailored dog to LE/Forces/MP then the other coated types. People do say there are long coat Malinois, those genes come from lines that had Turvuren mixed in. The Malinois as a pure type does not carry a long coat gene. Black Malinois came from a time where crossing with Dutch Shepherds was common. A lot of problems were had in Europe with paperwork as some was falsified/modified which is where the old 'don't trust KNPV line papers' came from here in Oz. People were importing dogs that were either crossed in the lines (KNPV and ringsports do not require a pedigree in order to participate) or bitches in whelp that gave birth to 'black' Malinois. I saw a litter that were called black malinois, ummmm some were brindle pups too! Not a Malinois, that is a dutch x. I just checked the breed page on the main Dogzonline website and it lists the breed as one: In Australia we regard the Belgian Shepherd as a single breed with four varieties. Because of this, the dogs are always registered on their coat type and colour, not of their parents. I thought each dog had different temp types, but according to this very website, the only difference is the coat. Edited June 17, 2014 by poochmad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverStar-Aura Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Pro tip: if you're trying to be polite, maybe ditch the angry face.... The OP and nek made spelling mistakes. While most posts weren't angry , only one poster needed to point out the issue. Three people posting about it just makes the OP feel bad. People misspelt rare breed names. It happens and it isn't really such a big deal that we need to pull out ok' angry face. Thanks Megan; that's what I was trying to get at with my 'rage' comment. Not that people were getting angry but the fact that Mister Angry Face was used and that so many people felt the need to comment. I mean the polite way would've been 'it's Belgian but hey, you got the 4 varieties correct though'. It's definitely an interesting topic and one I find confusing. :laugh: So is the BSD judged as separate breeds in ANKC shows and by registering the puppies based on coat mean that a Malinois bitch who (let's say happens to have Tervueren in her lines somewhere) births a long coated puppy that it would be registered as a Tervueren? And as a side question, does anyone know why the Laekenois variety isn't as popular/common? Are the varieties different in terms of temperament, which could possibly explain the lack of popularity of this particular variety? A part of me thinks it's also because people don't think they're as 'pretty' as the other 3 varieties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I believe that a long coated mal would still be registered as a mal. Huski's wisdoms had two long coated pups and I believe they're considered to be mals . I think coat type only comes into it if there has been a mating between types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 And as a side question, does anyone know why the Laekenois variety isn't as popular/common? Are the varieties different in terms of temperament, which could possibly explain the lack of popularity of this particular variety? A part of me thinks it's also because people don't think they're as 'pretty' as the other 3 varieties. The Laekenois is my favourite. If I was to ever get a Belgian it would be one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 If the papers say malinois x malinois then pups will be malinois despite a longer coat. It's a throwback in genetics not a type produced. And it's why I check genetics way more then just 5 generations on pedigree papers. For this breed it's way too small a snapshot of what you're actually getting. Yes I have also seen a long haired Mal, and he was a BIG Mal as well lol. Quite possibly also related to Huski's and Mal1's dog, from the same breeder. He is. They're from Nordenstamm breedings. I just checked the breed page on the main Dogzonline website and it lists the breed as one: In Australia we regard the Belgian Shepherd as a single breed with four varieties. Because of this, the dogs are always registered on their coat type and colour, not of their parents. I thought each dog had different temp types, but according to this very website, the only difference is the coat. It's not just the coat. I suppose in the days where coat was the deciding factor of course temperament would have been quite similar. These days though there's quite distinct differences. They still have similar quirks I must admit but there are differences due to the fact the Malinois in particular has become so specialised. The OP and nek made spelling mistakes. While most posts weren't angry , only one poster needed to point out the issue. Three people posting about it just makes the OP feel bad. I've had cluster headaches for a week, if the worst thing in your life is a misspelled breed name then bully for you. megan is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 If the papers say malinois x malinois then pups will be malinois despite a longer coat. Just regarding this bit. I've heard Belgians can carry recessive black. So if a Terv x Terv mating resulted in a black pup would it still be a Tervuren just miss marked or could it be registered as a Groenendael? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe001 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Just for some more info on the malinois. KNPV mals and dutch shepherds are interchangeable in type and are classified according to colour. Fawn are called mals and the brindles are dutchies. These are not the FCI primarily show-line dogs with a pedigree (and breed association going back to 1898) but the KNPV (Royal Dutch Police Dog or "Koninklijke Nederlandse Politiehond Vereniging" training program). Most working breeders in Aus use the KNPV dogs, I believe, from a couple of conversations I have had with breeders. Also mals come in black - not just fawn. Although these are, again I believe, from KNPV lines so actually are dutch mal mixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The knpv is not a breed registry. They go on what is written on the paperwork. A dutchie and a mal are two separate beasts. The KNPV is about producing workers and proving a dogs worth. It's why there was so much nay saying about KNPV line dogs here in Aus. Just because it looked like a Malinois didnt mean it necessarily was 110%. Example of a popular sire is Rico Vergossen, 'KNPV Malinois' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo_Baggins_Junior Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 If the papers say malinois x malinois then pups will be malinois despite a longer coat. Just regarding this bit. I've heard Belgians can carry recessive black. So if a Terv x Terv mating resulted in a black pup would it still be a Tervuren just miss marked or could it be registered as a Groenendael? A Belgian breeder would be best to answer this but I would think it would be the same as the opposite Groen X Goen produces a Terv it is registered as a Terv http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=80374 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Midniara~ Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) If the papers say malinois x malinois then pups will be malinois despite a longer coat. Just regarding this bit. I've heard Belgians can carry recessive black. So if a Terv x Terv mating resulted in a black pup would it still be a Tervuren just miss marked or could it be registered as a Groenendael? A Belgian breeder would be best to answer this but I would think it would be the same as the opposite Groen X Goen produces a Terv it is registered as a Terv http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=80374 In this senario the Belgian will be registered as a Groenendael. :) (ie; if Terv x Terv produces black) Just popped in here and saw this post. Haven't been on DOL for quite some time. Edited June 18, 2014 by ~Midniara~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Stay and edumacate us Midniara! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverStar-Aura Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 If the papers say malinois x malinois then pups will be malinois despite a longer coat. Just regarding this bit. I've heard Belgians can carry recessive black. So if a Terv x Terv mating resulted in a black pup would it still be a Tervuren just miss marked or could it be registered as a Groenendael? A Belgian breeder would be best to answer this but I would think it would be the same as the opposite Groen X Goen produces a Terv it is registered as a Terv http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=80374 In this senario the Belgian will be registered as a Groenendael. :) (ie; if Terv x Terv produces black) Just popped in here and saw this post. Haven't been on DOL for quite some time. So would I be right then, in saying that the ANKC really treats the four varieties as just that; four varieties of the SAME breed? Almost as though it's more like a different name per coat colour/type rather than different names for different breeds? Wow this does my head in but I'm glad I asked the question as it's so very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Midniara~ Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) Stay and edumacate us Midniara! :laugh: Intervariety matings are now allowable in Australia again: EXCERPT FROM THE ANKC LTD ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING & BOARD MEETING HELD IN MELBOURNE ON 20TH & 21ST OCTOBER, 2012: At the recent Annual General Meeting of the Australian National Kennel Council Limited held in Melbourne: 10. Belgian Shepherd Inter-variety breeding It was resolved that the policy on Belgian Shepherd inter-variety breeding be amended to: “The ANKC Ltd permits interbreeding between varieties of Belgian Shepherds when needed for promoting health and genetic diversity (in accordance with FCI General Assembly 2011) – avoiding breeding long coated to wire coated or risk of untypical coat texture. Breeding combinations permitted: 1. Groenendael x Tervueren 2. Tervueren x Malinois 3. Laekenois x Malinois The progeny of the inter-variety mating is registered in the ANKC Stud Book, each puppy according to its variety.” Hopefully that clears it all up for you. :) Edited June 18, 2014 by ~Midniara~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Midniara~ Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) If the papers say malinois x malinois then pups will be malinois despite a longer coat. Just regarding this bit. I've heard Belgians can carry recessive black. So if a Terv x Terv mating resulted in a black pup would it still be a Tervuren just miss marked or could it be registered as a Groenendael? A Belgian breeder would be best to answer this but I would think it would be the same as the opposite Groen X Goen produces a Terv it is registered as a Terv http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=80374 In this senario the Belgian will be registered as a Groenendael. :) (ie; if Terv x Terv produces black) Just popped in here and saw this post. Haven't been on DOL for quite some time. So would I be right then, in saying that the ANKC really treats the four varieties as just that; four varieties of the SAME breed? Almost as though it's more like a different name per coat colour/type rather than different names for different breeds? Wow this does my head in but I'm glad I asked the question as it's so very interesting. Yes, the ANKC treats it as one breed with three different coat types. We have one standard with just the different coat types listed. Basically a Belgian should look the same when shaved. In the ANKC ring they are judged separately. Edited June 18, 2014 by ~Midniara~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Oooh thanks for the educating Midniara! And slightly off topic but Bilbo that puppy you posted is STUNNING! I didn't realise black masks could look so amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Midniara~ Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Oooh thanks for the educating Midniara! No worries. I would've missed this normally. I just came in here out of curiosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Is it right to say then Mid, that the breed has the same temperament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Can the " not mals" compete in IPO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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