RiverStar-Aura Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) I've been pondering this question for a while now and I'm still not sure on the answer. It came about when I was reading the combined breed standard for the 4 variations, which states: CROSSBREEDING -- MATING BETWEEN VARIETIES: Any matings between varieties are forbidden, except in exceptional circumstances. Refer to ANKC Regulation Part 6 Clause 8.10 So I jump over to the ANKC regs to read up the clause and discover that Part 6 clause 8.10 is about Rotties and not Belgian Sheps. Scrolling further down, clause 9.11 talks about the Belgians so obviously the standard needs updating with the correct clause, however, it still leaves me confused. 9.11 BSD (Groenendael); BSD (Laekenois); BSD (Malinois) and BSD (Tervueren) ANKC Ltd permits interbreeding between varieties of BSDs when needed for promoting health and genetic diversity (in accordance with FCI General Assembly 2011) -- avoiding breeding long coated to wire coated or risk of untypical coat texture. Breeding combinations permitted: Groenendael x Tervueren Tervueren x Malinois Laekenois x Malinois The progeny of the inter-variety mating is registered in the ANKC Ltd Stud Book, each puppy according to its variety (10/12, 7.2.1) So my question is, does the above clause mean that no exceptional circumstances are truly required when crossbreeding the varieties above? Is proof needed when crossbreeding the varieties for 'promoting health' and 'genetic diversity' and how would a resulting puppy be registered according to 'variety'-- as in, what exactly would the 'variety' be or does it mean the pups would be registered as 'groenendael x tervueren' etc? Edited June 17, 2014 by RiverStar-Aura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoDi Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 While the whole matter of breeding between the Coat varieties makes no sense to me in terms of regulation. I believe when the Puppy's are registered they are registered by the look of the coat as there is enough of a difference to distinguish between the varieties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) It's Belgian Shepherds, not Belgium Shepherds, sorry to be picky but what you are saying would be like calling a German Shepherd a Germany Shepherd. Used to be a big annoyance when I had them. I think all intervariety breedings need approval and only the listed types will be approved, but I am out of touch with it. Edited to add, the pups of an approved intervariety mating would be registered as Groen, Terv, Laek or Mal, whatever the coat type it had. Not as a cross. The Belgians suffered significant genetic bottlenecks due to the world wars etc, which is I think at least part of the reason intervariety breeding has been allowed. The rules have changed a couple of times. The approvable matings are largely I think because they will produce only the registerable colour and coat types Edited June 17, 2014 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivory & Beau Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Belgian is the adjective of Belgium. Someone who is from Belgium is a Belgian, something from Belgium is Belgian. So A Belgian man, or a Belgian A Belgian Cheese, a Belgian dessert, a Belgian dog. Using 'Belgium' in any of the above contexts is a grammatical error. Big pet peeve for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) It's Belgian Shepherds, not Belgium Shepherds, sorry to be picky but what you are saying would be like calling a German Shepherd a Germany Shepherd. Used to be a big annoyance when I had them. I think all intervariety breedings need approval and only the listed types will be approved, but I am out of touch with it. Edited to add, the pups of an approved intervariety mating would be registered as Groen, Terv, Laek or Mal, whatever the coat type it had. Not as a cross. The Belgians suffered significant genetic bottlenecks due to the world wars etc, which is I think at least part of the reason intervariety breeding has been allowed. The rules have changed a couple of times. Off topic but these days no one seems to even understand that the GSDs are a herding breed hence the Shepherd part of the name. Everyone seems to call them a German Shepard! Edited June 17, 2014 by german_shep_fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 It's Belgian Shepherds, not Belgium Shepherds, sorry to be picky but what you are saying would be like calling a German Shepherd a Germany Shepherd. Used to be a big annoyance when I had them. I think all intervariety breedings need approval and only the listed types will be approved, but I am out of touch with it. Edited to add, the pups of an approved intervariety mating would be registered as Groen, Terv, Laek or Mal, whatever the coat type it had. Not as a cross. The Belgians suffered significant genetic bottlenecks due to the world wars etc, which is I think at least part of the reason intervariety breeding has been allowed. The rules have changed a couple of times. Off topic but these days no one seems to even understand that the GSDs are a herding breed hence the Shepherd part of the name. Everyone seems to call them a German Shepard! Yes, calling them Shephards is a big peeve of mine too but this thread is about Belgian Shepherds, not GSD's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverStar-Aura Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) . Edited June 17, 2014 by RiverStar-Aura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverStar-Aura Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) Wow what a whole lot of rage over one typo. One polite comment would've sufficed but I forgot this if DOL where the need to harp on exists. I won't even bother explaining I was tired when making the post and am fully aware they're BELGIAN ShepHERDS. But thanks for making me feel inferior!! Edited June 17, 2014 by RiverStar-Aura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 No rage from me, I thought I had been polite. LoL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
german_shep_fan Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Me either :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal1 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I seem to remember a belgian interbreeding some years back (Malinois x Laekenois), I think the litter required pre approval with the state body. Best to check with the body in your state. My working line Malinois has a longer coat. Often asked "what cross is she?" people normally thinks she's part GSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave73 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Wow what a whole lot of rage over one typo. One polite comment would've sufficed but I forgot this if DOL where the need to harp on exists. I won't even bother explaining I was tired when making the post and am fully aware they're BELGIAN ShepHERDS. But thanks for making me feel inferior!! Don't worry some people on this site have a tendency to carry on a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochmad Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I find it interesting that they limit the matings if the only difference between them is their coat. Does anyone know why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I find it interesting that they limit the matings if the only difference between them is their coat. Does anyone know why? Some countries treat them as varieties of the same breed and some as separate breeds, I think the intention of the original founders was to separate them as varieties of one breed on regional lines and that meant coat and colour, the names come from regions. They could all be one breed I guess and judged as one, but I expect the differences in type make that unlikely now despite the standards being the same except for coat and colour - they don't look like one breed under the coat to me anymore and neither are the temperaments identical. The interbreeding issue has been hugely controversial at different points in time. I know there are some breeders on here who will have a much better answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Herein lies a problem. When they first had a standard made they were considered to be the one breed, there was much more variety but they standardised it into 4 varieties depending on what region of Belgium they came from. The FCI still consider them to be 4 varieties of the same breed whereas different countries consider them separate breeds. I believe the ANKC first considered them as 4 varieties then moved to consider them 4 breeds and banned unsanctioned crossing of the dogs. But because they are associate members of the FCI (which allows classification due to coat from a litter) they kept a provision in there to allow some crossing of the Belgians. Now, when it comes down to it these days, it's not just coat any more. The Malinois and some Lakenois are not the same in temperament and body structure to the Groenendael and Turvuren. The working Malinois in particular evolved into a different animal to be just a type. Shave a Turvuren it wont make a Malinois. The Malinois became the type offshooting to a more tailored dog to LE/Forces/MP then the other coated types. People do say there are long coat Malinois, those genes come from lines that had Turvuren mixed in. The Malinois as a pure type does not carry a long coat gene. Black Malinois came from a time where crossing with Dutch Shepherds was common. A lot of problems were had in Europe with paperwork as some was falsified/modified which is where the old 'don't trust KNPV line papers' came from here in Oz. People were importing dogs that were either crossed in the lines (KNPV and ringsports do not require a pedigree in order to participate) or bitches in whelp that gave birth to 'black' Malinois. I saw a litter that were called black malinois, ummmm some were brindle pups too! Not a Malinois, that is a dutch x. The problem is there is still debate as to the breed vs variety idea as was originally done with the dogs. Yes the gene pools can be small particularly in places like Australia where there are so few dogs and you see pretty much a lot of dogs are related in one way or another (hence why I'm looking at importing down the track). Some blood lines have also almost died out from wasted breedings and people who stopped bothering with papers to make a quick buck. The coateds were lucky in a way that showing/ANKC sports played a role in their perpetuation, papers were important. In the Malinois not so much which is why a lot of good dogs and lines went down the toilet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 No rage from me, I thought I had been polite. LoL. I thought everyone was polite. Defintely no anger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbaudry Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I'll try to be polite, but here's another pet peeves of mine... The correct spelling for the long coated fawn variety is Tervueren (tervuren is also accepted), not Turvuren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I'll try to be polite, but here's another pet peeves of mine... The correct spelling for the long coated fawn variety is Tervueren (tervuren is also accepted), not Turvuren And Malinois is pronounced Mal-in-wah not Mal-in-noise or Ma-lean-ohs as I've heard a few times lol. As has already been mentioned the difference between the four varieties is more than just the coats now. In many countries the Belgian Malinois is considered it's own breed, and there is probably the biggest difference with Mals compared to the other varieties due to how predominantly they have been used and developed as high end working and sport dogs. There are some lines of Malinois that produce coated dogs and yes it's a throw back to when they were mated with Tervs, but they are Malinois (clearly from their pedigrees). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Pro tip: if you're trying to be polite, maybe ditch the angry face.... The OP and nek made spelling mistakes. While most posts weren't angry , only one poster needed to point out the issue. Three people posting about it just makes the OP feel bad. People misspelt rare breed names. It happens and it isn't really such a big deal that we need to pull out ok' angry face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal1 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) Huski, my Malinois and your female (my girl is half sister to yours through Hassan. Please correct me if I'm wrong)definately have Terv. and Gr. way back in the 50's. A dog named Xavier a Terv. ('52 Belgian Ring champ) is in my girls pedigree online among others. Re Black malinois the only ones I know of are XMechelse Heders (XMalinois), the black coming often from a Gr. named Andor van de IJsselvloed. Edited June 17, 2014 by Mal1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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