Susan Garrett Recallers Online Course

[The Spotted Devil]

Ah postage info - thankyou!

Melbourne folk - if anyone wants a t-shirt etc maybe we should do a bulk order and save on shipping...

[Kavik]

I struggle with sizing on the internet because I am very small! Especially with unisex shirts, sometimes even the smallest size is too big. For my club jacket I have just put an order in for a kids size 12 :laugh:

[The Spotted Devil]

I struggle with sizing on the internet because I am very small! Especially with unisex shirts, sometimes even the smallest size is too big. For my club jacket I have just put an order in for a kids size 12 :laugh:

Yes! Talk about polar opposites you and me! You are so petite - remember from the Agility Nationals with that big dog of yours! Although everyone says I make Em look super tiny lol

[silentchild]

How's everyone going?

Any advice on how to translate IYC to real-life situations - ie not running off to other dogs in off leash areas, or not going to go chase that duck floating on the lake, ignoring all distractions, etc etc?

Breeze is great with the basic IYC and can easily leave any food I drop or throw at her as I've been working on that with her since the day I got her - now I can pile up to 10 hot dog slices on each paw and five on her head lol while she looks very tortured but I don't know how to translate it over to more real-life situations. Do I just stand with her at the park and if she makes a move to another dog I go home (take away resource)? If she sits quietly and focuses on me I reward and then release her to go play? Is that how it works? What if the other dogs off leash at the park run up to her instead? (do not want!) What if I don't want to allow her to go play with the strange dogs anyway? For example if we use IYC for not chasing ducks - I never want her to go chase a duck anyway, so does she just get food rewards instead of being "released"?

Any advice?

Edited July 7, 2014 by silentchild

[raineth]

I'm not sure how to do those things either silentchild, I could be wrong! but I thought we would specifically be taught how to do these things in the duration of the course. I hope so.

I think there is something about laying IYC with food and IYC with toys so that the dog learns to choose to partake in which ever one you tell him too. So you teach him/her to tug even though there's a bowl of yummy treats on the floor for example. Maybe it is up to us to creatively set up these sorts of situations?

[Kavik]

There are some games later in the course which might help - at the moment we are value building, later we will be value testing :)

There is a game which addresses DWDH (don't wanna don't hafta) which is what raineth is talking about, there is one which addresses giving the dog permission to leave you to visit a person or dog, and others. I must pay more attention to those games this time around, as I have similar issues - my dogs love visiting human friends and Nitro loves visiting dogs as well :laugh:

[grumpette]

Kavik I also have a question.

With the GR and the tennis balls: if the tennis ball is of such high value to the dog, why would you try to swap it for tugging which is lesser value? Would you not use the tennis ball as the reward for the dog, which only comes from you?

I have a similar problem to SC in that Zeph loves other dogs (yes the next dog will be dog neutral and still well socialised, the beauty of hindsight), but he loves squeaky balls more than other dogs.

[Leah82]

Kavik I also have a question.

With the GR and the tennis balls: if the tennis ball is of such high value to the dog, why would you try to swap it for tugging which is lesser value? Would you not use the tennis ball as the reward for the dog, which only comes from you?

I have a similar problem to SC in that Zeph loves other dogs (yes the next dog will be dog neutral and still well socialised, the beauty of hindsight), but he loves squeaky balls more than other dogs.

You want the reinforcement to come from you and while you know where the ball comes from the actual reinforcement that the dog gets is about moving away from you.

I think I got that right, TSD or Kavik feel free to correct me

If Zeph loves squeaky balls I'm sure you can find one on the end of a rope.

[grumpette]

Kavik I also have a question.

With the GR and the tennis balls: if the tennis ball is of such high value to the dog, why would you try to swap it for tugging which is lesser value? Would you not use the tennis ball as the reward for the dog, which only comes from you?

I have a similar problem to SC in that Zeph loves other dogs (yes the next dog will be dog neutral and still well socialised, the beauty of hindsight), but he loves squeaky balls more than other dogs.

You want the reinforcement to come from you and while you know where the ball comes from the actual reinforcement that the dog gets is about moving away from you.

I think I got that right, TSD or Kavik feel free to correct me

If Zeph loves squeaky balls I'm sure you can find one on the end of a rope.

OK, so the reward/release is actually in the chase of the ball, and the rope/tug ties the reward/release back to you?

So it is not the actual squeaky ball, but the chase? Even though you are the only provider of a squeaky ball? He is very particular in the type of ball that he likes

[The Spotted Devil]

Kavik I also have a question.

With the GR and the tennis balls: if the tennis ball is of such high value to the dog, why would you try to swap it for tugging which is lesser value? Would you not use the tennis ball as the reward for the dog, which only comes from you?

I have a similar problem to SC in that Zeph loves other dogs (yes the next dog will be dog neutral and still well socialised, the beauty of hindsight), but he loves squeaky balls more than other dogs.

This is how I see it: I want the dog to take the reward I choose. When Em had her first retrieve of game she literally spat out the cheese I gave her when she brought it back to me. So why not use another retrieve to reward her? Because I need her to pick up the retrieve I tell her to. There is no way I can match the reward of a duck in the water - but today she chose to stay on the line of the retrieve (which meant a long swim in cold water) and to swim past a pair of ducks right near her (which she acknowledged and kept swimming) to retrieve a boring plastic dummy. Then get back in the freezing cold water and swim back without hesitation.

When we are out in the field I need to be able to recall her off live game when she is in "the zone." Just like I need to be able to call Zig back when he's sniffing and peeing. Or chasing a kangaroo.

[Kavik]

In the clip with the GR, she is tugging and using the ball as a distraction - and it creates a DWDH moment (don't wanna don't hafta), which she overcomes by moving further away from the ball and when she gets good quality tugging, she then runs back to the ball. It is more about, you do what I want you to do, and then you can have what you want. She wants him to interact with her before being allowed access to the ball. For many dogs (including mine), this is more of an issue surrounding food and tugs.

Leah92 is correct in why SG prefers tug to balls - tug is about interacting with you, chasing a ball is about the chase away from you. In the clip, SG does use the ball as a reward in a way, after she gets the dog to tug he gets his ball.

It was a very good demonstration of how to overcome DWDH and how you have to be persistent.

Hope that makes sense, let me know if you want a clearer explanation.

[The Spotted Devil]

With the GR - that obsession with the tennis balls is a) exhausting for the dog and handler around the home; and b) not great if you're out and about and someone else is throwing tennis balls about or if the dog decides that chasing birds is more fun than anything the owner has to offer. When you start off teaching this in conditions that tightly limit access to the resource conditional on a behaviour, it translates really well to more testing situations.

Edited July 7, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[The Spotted Devil]

Another reason SG likes tug is that it required lots of focus from the dog and it gets them into a high state of arousal, such that they ignore all the distractions.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

@silentchild

Do I just stand with her at the park and if she makes a move to another dog I go home (take away resource)? If she sits quietly and focuses on me I reward and then release her to go play? Is that how it works? What if the other dogs off leash at the park run up to her instead? (do not want!) What if I don't want to allow her to go play with the strange dogs anyway? For example if we use IYC for not chasing ducks - I never want her to go chase a duck anyway, so does she just get food rewards instead of being "released"?

Hmm for the first 18 days - approx - you don't let your dog off lead at the park or anywhere else you might have difficulty catching it.

You do go exercise and do long walks but the intial part of the course (and I wish it was clearer) you want the dog to learn all the new skills and you're not testing them at university level

eg there's recall in the bathroom (confined space) with bestest ever treats eg kindergarten level

and there's calling off fun dogs at the park - university level - tho calling off from chasing ducks or chasing cars or angry snake might be PHD level...

You can still go to the park - but don't let your dog off lead. Work on getting her focus on you and reward that. Play some games - but keep her on lead. For now - do not give her permission to go play. And yes - you can eventually use that as a reward for doing what you want - but it's WAAAAYYY too early for that now.

You probably don't want the other dogs coming up to say hello and what you do then can make big problems later. Best to be far enough away that they don't notice you. But otherwise - try to keep your dog's attention on you and be boring for the other dogs.

do not do what I did - and reward your dog for attention on the other dog or use luring to get attention back on you or release after a play bow even if you get a calm sit first... because now my dog has escalated her request to be off lead by growling and lunging at the other dogs - even tho all she really wants to do is go hoovering in the playground. (ARGH).

If you make a mistake at this point (eg let your dog off lead and she doesn't come back when you want) - you need to be able to be "swift and deliberate" about catching the dog and putting back on lead. And no treats / rewards for a significant amount of time.

My problem was my dog back chaining being naughty with being good then getting off lead. Eg she understood to get off lead - first she needed to be naughty and excited and offer play, and then act calm and hold a nice sit, and then she gets off lead... So she'd do that whole performance for me and I'd fall for it...

There's a bunch of other stuff she does until I notice I've become the treat dispensing machine (dispense when she presses the button) and it's not me driving the bus any more.

You could do the kindergarten version of IYC at the park - eg put some food on the ground, keep your dog on lead but allow her to make a choice about whether to go for the food or wait. And then you want to choose what behaviour you want. Is it ok if she "indicates" hey there's food here - can I have it? Or do you want her to completely ignore the food.

Personally I like the sit and "hey there's food here" in preference to covert or overt foraging and hoovering.

You can also post these questions in the IYC game day page, or the training chat section.

It's possibly a good idea to simplify your question to the essence of what you're asking eg

"can I let my dog off lead at the park to go play with other dogs yet? what criteria do I want? How do I do IYC at the park?"

And then also post any answers you might have to that. eg

My plan is to ...

And then tag it with something that allows you to find your comment again later and any answers

eg

MRB 140707 8:53pm IYC at the park #itsyerchoice

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

about the ball thing...

SG also believes that chasing a ball for exercise is just dangerous - I think she's seen too many top agility dogs get injured doing it. Has to do with the way they stop and face plant and change direction when they get to the ball. It's way too rough on a dog body and some dogs break.

She sometimes does a throw and chase - but she will do it with a toy that doesn't bounce or roll. And sometimes she will require the whatever it is to be stopped on the ground before she allows the dog to go get it (which hers do absolutely flat out). Part of what she sets as criteria in her agility training - as the dogs get an understanding of what they're doing on equipment - that they also learn to collect their stride and slow down so they can make a good approach and a tight turn without wiping themselves out or crashing, while going flat out between.

[grumpette]

In the clip with the GR, she is tugging and using the ball as a distraction - and it creates a DWDH moment (don't wanna don't hafta), which she overcomes by moving further away from the ball and when she gets good quality tugging, she then runs back to the ball. It is more about, you do what I want you to do, and then you can have what you want. She wants him to interact with her before being allowed access to the ball. For many dogs (including mine), this is more of an issue surrounding food and tugs.

Leah92 is correct in why SG prefers tug to balls - tug is about interacting with you, chasing a ball is about the chase away from you. In the clip, SG does use the ball as a reward in a way, after she gets the dog to tug he gets his ball.

It was a very good demonstration of how to overcome DWDH and how you have to be persistent.

Hope that makes sense, let me know if you want a clearer explanation.

So it is very similar to working within critical distance.

With Zeph we currently work alongside the main group. When he is paying attention, watching and working well he gets his ball. When we move closer to the dogs and he stops working and starts whining, we move away and he does not get his ball.

So he only gets access to the other dogs and his ball on my terms. Is this the same situation?

[The Spotted Devil]

Completely agree about ball throwing = dangerous for the dog and that is really about how the dog has to skid to a halt to retrieve the moving ball. With retrieving drills the dummy is stationary and the dog can prepare to slow and stop and pick it up. It's a very different action.

[Kavik]

In the clip with the GR, she is tugging and using the ball as a distraction - and it creates a DWDH moment (don't wanna don't hafta), which she overcomes by moving further away from the ball and when she gets good quality tugging, she then runs back to the ball. It is more about, you do what I want you to do, and then you can have what you want. She wants him to interact with her before being allowed access to the ball. For many dogs (including mine), this is more of an issue surrounding food and tugs.

Leah92 is correct in why SG prefers tug to balls - tug is about interacting with you, chasing a ball is about the chase away from you. In the clip, SG does use the ball as a reward in a way, after she gets the dog to tug he gets his ball.

It was a very good demonstration of how to overcome DWDH and how you have to be persistent.

Hope that makes sense, let me know if you want a clearer explanation.

So it is very similar to working within critical distance.

With Zeph we currently work alongside the main group. When he is paying attention, watching and working well he gets his ball. When we move closer to the dogs and he stops working and starts whining, we move away and he does not get his ball.

So he only gets access to the other dogs and his ball on my terms. Is this the same situation?

Similar idea. SG is asking a question to the dog - can you work with me (tug) this close to the ball? If not, move further away, how about this close to the ball? If yes, then play/tug, then run to ball.

[Leah82]

Ok so playing RZ last night I'm a little confused how to get the dog in the zone to begin with, or if they break away from the zone.

The only 3 options I see are:

Lure them into the zone which is a big no no for recallers

Place them into the zone which I find doesn't work well for my dogs because they need to do it themselves in order to remember

Or step into the zone myself with them sitting, again they are not getting into the zone themselves

and should I stick with one side until they get the hang of it or switch from left to right regularly. I'm happy to leave Collie on the left but I do want to continue with agility training with Sarah once we're through recallers

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Lure them into the zone which is a big no no for recallers

No - but if you've got a good hand touch you can guide them into position that way and them following the palm of your hand into position - doesn't have the same problems that luring with food or toy can have. Ie you step back and put your hand out behind you when the dog gets there you lead the dog from behind to RZ position with your hand.

Place them into the zone which I find doesn't work well for my dogs because they need to do it themselves in order to remember

There's no choice or understanding in this.

Or step into the zone myself with them sitting, again they are not getting into the zone themselves

This is the easiest way to start.

You get your dog to sit/drop and you step so the dog is in the zone.

hand over five treats for "being there" - you might say "yes" or the dog's name first. And don't forget to touch your hip or knee (for short dog). We were considering putting peanut paste (or similar) on a wooden spoon for rewarding really short dogs.

Hopefully your dog understands sit = stay, but here's an opportunity to train it - tho I'm not sure how you put the dog back if it moves. I think maybe you give the dog a choice as you move (start with one step), and if the dog moves you collar grab and turn you both in a small circle and start over. Ie while holding the dog - you get the sit (ideally without asking for it), and then you stand in the RZ and start over.

I just say "wait" because that's how I taught my dog before SG and she (the dog) understands that.

Take one step forward, then say "go" or whatever your release word is. Hopefully your dog will take one step forward to be next to you and where all those treats came last time... The understanding of the release word (and the stay) - comes from crate (or mat) games.

Ie one game builds on the next. Playing RZ will build understanding of "control position" aka automatic stay (which we only have with the word "wait") and release too.

Probably easier to work one side until you have it good enough to add a cue, and then work the other side. The dog should always come to the RZ on the side shoulder that you're looking over, hand signalling on or that they started on. Ie Agility doesn't like uncued blind crosses (dog swapping sides behind handler). I think that probably doesn't work so well in Obedience either.

With my dog - "heel" always means left side. Unless she's next to me on the right side already - even then if I say "heel" she often goes to the left side. And I use hand signals to get the right side - tho sometimes I say "other side" which gets shortened to "side" sometimes. But you only want to add a cue - when you've got a nice behaviour.