Worrying Trend In The Show Ring

[Dogsfevr]

But Guide Dogs tend to breed their own Labs - they don't care about the head shape or coat or look of the dog provided they are A) sound and B) can do the job. You don't want a GD that is attracted to birds, chasing and retrieving. The dogs used for drug detection are at the complete opposite end of the spectrum for drive to retrieve.

Guide source most of there dogs from show breeders as do assistance dogs certainly here they do & yes some are sired by the dual working dogs so have the best of both worlds

AS for drug detection many are failed pets just like the beagle brigade .

The prison dogs in this state where also failed pets & from the pounds .(GSD )

Lets face even the police dogs where failed pets at some stage .

Lets face it dogs of unknown heritage have been used as assistance dogs for how many years especially through the prison training system ,it comes down to what each dog has to offer

The bomb dog in this state many years ago was also a pound dog a Sibe/GSD mix .

So its safe to say many assistance dogs in this world are mix & pure often rescued & given a second chance

[labadore]

But Guide Dogs tend to breed their own Labs - they don't care about the head shape or coat or look of the dog provided they are A) sound and B) can do the job. You don't want a GD that is attracted to birds, chasing and retrieving.

They may now be breeding their own Labs but they haven't always. They have sourced their pups from breeders and I know for a fact pups came from show breeders breeding to standard and these pups had the typical Labrador traits/instincts of retrieving, love of water etc but at the appropriate age they underwent the rigors of the guide dog training program. The training program is rigorous with a high failure rate, so only the best that meet all the guide dog criteria make it through and qraduate as guide dogs. Labradors from show breeders bred to standard have been used successfully for many years as guide dogs and there weren't all off chasing birds. :D Once that harness is placed on a dog guide they are in work mode, but when not working I bet many of them love to play fetch and swim if given the chance :D .

When you say they don't care about coat etc, I don't think that is strictly true as I am pretty sure some guide dog puppies with allergies/skin conditions don't make it to the guide dog training programme.

Labradors are a very versatile dog and their legendary temperament (intelligent, keen and biddable, with a strong will to please. Kindly nature, with no trace of aggression or undue shyness) makes them a very suitable working dog in many arenas as well as fantastic pets/family dogs. My show bred boy is the most chilled out boy at home, but step outside the front gate and he is ready for action, he is athletic and energetic and loves to be on the go. :)

I am currently sorting through some very recent close up pics of him that I am going to post later for you to critique and appraise as I will be interested in the variety of judgements/comments as they will be based on each person's 'perception' of a Labrador. I have critiqued the OP's pic of their working line (I believe bred by Guide dogs) by saying that their dog is too lean based on my perception of what I think a Labrador should be/look like, so I need to open my dog up to scrutiny as well :D Whilst he is show bred, I do not show him.

[The Spotted Devil]

But Guide Dogs tend to breed their own Labs - they don't care about the head shape or coat or look of the dog provided they are A) sound and B) can do the job. You don't want a GD that is attracted to birds, chasing and retrieving. The dogs used for drug detection are at the complete opposite end of the spectrum for drive to retrieve.

Guide source most of there dogs from show breeders as do assistance dogs certainly here they do & yes some are sired by the dual working dogs so have the best of both worlds

AS for drug detection many are failed pets just like the beagle brigade .

The prison dogs in this state where also failed pets & from the pounds .(GSD )

Lets face even the police dogs where failed pets at some stage .

Lets face it dogs of unknown heritage have been used as assistance dogs for how many years especially through the prison training system ,it comes down to what each dog has to offer

The bomb dog in this state many years ago was also a pound dog a Sibe/GSD mix .

So its safe to say many assistance dogs in this world are mix & pure often rescued & given a second chance

Clearly things vary from state to state. Guide Dogs Vic have their own breeding stock. Field bred labs are HIGHLY valued by the Federal Government.

labadore - I just saw your response - I agree with you that GD would have sourced their original dogs from breeders. But selection pressures have changed the Labrador used for GD as much as it has changed the Labrador used for other purposes. And that is ok by my book!

Edited June 12, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[mita]

Guide Dogs Vic have their own breeding stock. book!

Dougie, the ex-Guide Dog trainee, who had to learn to put his paws in water & to swim, came from Guide Dogs Victoria.

[Kavik]

I'm pretty sure Guide Dogs NSW and the NSW Police both breed their own dogs.

AQIS is fading out Beagles and will only be using Labradors.

[melzawelza]

The Army get a lot of dogs from the pound - all kinds of dogs, they're just interested in crazy ball drive, not breed.

Edited June 12, 2014 by melzawelza

[The Spotted Devil]

The Army get a lot of dogs from the pound - all kinds of dogs, they're just interested in crazy ball drive, not breed.

Absolutely. But some shelters (acting as pounds in Vic) are now refusing to release to Army due to "welfare concerns". Frustrating but it is the reality. A relative of my ESS has been working as a bomb detector dog in Afghanistan.

Where there is a public face for the organisation (e.g. AQIS, GD) they will use Labs (and in the past, Beagles) or ESS because they are more readily accepted by the public. I assume the Federal Government highly values the field bred Labs that they are getting because they are consistently retrieve crazy AND have excellent health (hip, elbows etc).

Edited June 12, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[melzawelza]

The Army get a lot of dogs from the pound - all kinds of dogs, they're just interested in crazy ball drive, not breed.

Absolutely. But some shelters (acting as pounds in Vic) are now refusing to release to Army due to "welfare concerns". Frustrating but it is the reality. A relative of my ESS has been working as a bomb detector dog in Afghanistan.

Yep, I've heard a couple of shelters/rescues say the same thing and it drives me mental as most of the suitable dogs for the Army are the ones that go nuts in the shelter and aren't fantastic pet prospects either. Cos it's much better to kill the dog than give it a great working life satisfying all it's drives....

[The Spotted Devil]

The Army get a lot of dogs from the pound - all kinds of dogs, they're just interested in crazy ball drive, not breed.

Absolutely. But some shelters (acting as pounds in Vic) are now refusing to release to Army due to "welfare concerns". Frustrating but it is the reality. A relative of my ESS has been working as a bomb detector dog in Afghanistan.

Yep, I've heard a couple of shelters/rescues say the same thing and it drives me mental as most of the suitable dogs for the Army are the ones that go nuts in the shelter and aren't fantastic pet prospects either. Cos it's much better to kill the dog than give it a great working life satisfying all it's drives....

Don't get me started…..

[melzawelza]

The Army get a lot of dogs from the pound - all kinds of dogs, they're just interested in crazy ball drive, not breed.

Absolutely. But some shelters (acting as pounds in Vic) are now refusing to release to Army due to "welfare concerns". Frustrating but it is the reality. A relative of my ESS has been working as a bomb detector dog in Afghanistan.

Yep, I've heard a couple of shelters/rescues say the same thing and it drives me mental as most of the suitable dogs for the Army are the ones that go nuts in the shelter and aren't fantastic pet prospects either. Cos it's much better to kill the dog than give it a great working life satisfying all it's drives....

Don't get me started…..

:laugh: You and me both.

[Kavik]

The Army get a lot of dogs from the pound - all kinds of dogs, they're just interested in crazy ball drive, not breed.

Absolutely. But some shelters (acting as pounds in Vic) are now refusing to release to Army due to "welfare concerns". Frustrating but it is the reality. A relative of my ESS has been working as a bomb detector dog in Afghanistan.

Yep, I've heard a couple of shelters/rescues say the same thing and it drives me mental as most of the suitable dogs for the Army are the ones that go nuts in the shelter and aren't fantastic pet prospects either. Cos it's much better to kill the dog than give it a great working life satisfying all it's drives....

I've been hearing the same thing from some rescues as well. Doesn't make sense to me, much better that they go somewhere they will be happy and help people at the same time.

[The Spotted Devil]

To return to the OP (again!)…have I seen overweight dogs in the show ring? Yes. Have I seen overweight dogs compete in agility, obedience and retrieving? Yes. Do I think it is representative of an entire breed or an entire dog sport? No. Is it my responsibility (as someone who comes in contact with a LOT of pet dogs through my study/work) to educate pet owners as to what constitutes "normal" weight and why I keep my own dogs slightly lighter than pets? Absolutely.

I'd never own a Stafford (just not my type of dog) but every time I see WIW's photos I am just WOW. Fit and balanced and, in fact, ripped. Same with the vast majority of show dogs I see on DOL. I can understand folk are unimpressed when generalisations about ANY breed or ANY sport are made.

Edited June 12, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[aussielover]

Overweight dogs in agility, flyball, retrieving, herding etc do generally not win, and would certainly not win a prestigious national competition.

I have no problems with type- horses for courses.

I prefer dogs, of whatever breed, mix or type to be fit and lean. And I do expect a labrador to look somewhat athletic, it is after all a gundog. But perhaps my interpretations and expectations are wrong. Luckily there are people breeding dogs like this even if they're not winning in the show ring.

[RallyValley]

From another perspective - I have a Utility Gundog, these breeds (Britts, Viszla, GSP, Wei) ARE bred to run all day. In a full days hunting with the range and quartering these guys do they could cover up to 100kms. These breeds are built for endurance and should be lean.

There is no way I would hunt my Britt the way a Lab is traditionally used - in and out of icy cold water and waiting in the hide or a boat all wet for long periods between retrieves. That is why Labs have thick coats and a layer of coverage. Modern trialling does not put the same demands on Labs so it is possible to see why the type has changed. The way to preserve traditional type is to continue using the dog for traditional work and select for ability or to use the guidelines created by those people who did (ie breed standards as close to the original as possible).

[Jed]

I'm sorry but any breed of dog that can't walk properly because it has been bred that way (one individual or a showline) should not be bred from anymore or bred to a dog with better hocks to improve and correct. The truth hurts but in my opinion and my opinion only I believe many of the showline dogs here and overseas are in obvious need of correction in the hind legs. I'm glad the dog HW posted won as that shows a recognition of better/correct conformation. But that's only my opinion so don't take it too much to heart.

so what is it about the hocks that needs to improve in your opinion to correct all of these GSD's that can't walk properly ?

First it was their back legs, now it's their hocks.

I don't know I'm not into anatomy. Maybe you should speak to a vet who specialises in GSDs if you're concerned. I have seen enough to know there is a problem but if people choose to ignore the obvious then i can't do anything about it. What i can do is acknowledge that the judges are (in Australia at least) rewarding the correct dogs so hopefully breeders will see this and adjust accordingly. That's all i will say. I'll leave the thread now as with all DOL conversations people have their own opinions and are immovable and I truly appreciate all differing opinions/standpoints and I have stated mine. Enjoy your chat :) Seeya

Like a lot of others, I wish to know what you think is wrong with GSD's back legs - and hocks - and why you think they can't walk.

Lots have asked you, but there is no reply. If you aren't into anatomy, maybe keep silent and be thought a fool, rather than open your mouth --- and well, you know.

But, please, do educate me. I am waiting

Or are you just another purebred dog rubbisher, without any facts or basis for remarks?

Hmmm?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

With respect to crossing working dogs, that is well known across a number of breeds, and was more commonly acknowledged in times past than it is now. Greys have been crossed with Salukis and Afghans to get speed for straight track racing and with arctic breeds to get speed for sledding. It did not surprise me at all to hear they have been crossed with gundogs to get speed going out.

[The Spotted Devil]

SSM - it's not the speed per se but that is a by product of an intense desire to retrieve and run straight lines to the retrieve no matter what is in the way (water, cover, terrain etc). Also, the dog has to be able to mark the fall of the game, that is, judge depth incredibly well. Whilst there is no doubt training involved there really needs to be a large genetic component - looking back at my own dog I now can see that she showed quite a bit of natural marking ability as a very young pup. Put simply, dogs who won US field trials were bred to dogs who won US field trials. You don't get marks for "speed"...most points are allocated for line out and slightly less for line back, plus delivery, steadiness, peg work and style, eagerness and action. You get pinged for handling (especially on a marked retrieve) and disobeyed commands.

As I think Maddy said (apologies if I'm wrong), why on earth would you add Greyhound to the mix to increase a dog's desire to retrieve and tackle water?

Edited June 12, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[kelpiecuddles]

Most basset are shown very much on the heavier end of a healthy weight range. I've seen photos of a excellent breeders champion dog in similar weight to what I keep my girl and in the sort of weight I would need to have my girl in order to compete in the ring and you wouldn't have even known they were the same dog. This breeder and I had an interesting discussion about it at the time.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

SSM - it's not the speed per se but that is a by product of an intense desire to retrieve and run straight lines to the retrieve no matter what is in the way (water, cover, terrain etc). Also, the dog has to be able to mark the fall of the game, that is, judge depth incredibly well. Whilst there is no doubt training involved there really needs to be a large genetic component - looking back at my own dog I now can see that she showed quite a bit of natural marking ability as a very young pup. Put simply, dogs who won US field trials were bred to dogs who won US field trials. You don't get marks for "speed"...most points are allocated for line out and slightly less for line back, plus delivery, steadiness, peg work and style, eagerness and action. You get pinged for handling (especially on a marked retrieve) and disobeyed commands.

As I think Maddy said (apologies if I'm wrong), why on earth would you add Greyhound to the mix to increase a dog's desire to retrieve and tackle water?

There's a couple of things going on here.

Firstly, you can't assume that all cross breeding is done by someone who understands what they are doing. Our own rural pounds contain enough evidence to demonstrate that - I'm not talking about BYBs as much as I'm talking about people breeding for pigging who have no real grip on desirable hunting temperament etc.

Secondly, greyhounds were originally hunters, not racers. Whether hunter or racer, the intense desire to chase game is something that successive generations have bred into greyhounds and other sighthounds. That is why we're constantly dealing with rips and tears from them leaping through stock fences after rabbits etc. While retrieving is not their strong suit, I can see that someone might draw a conclusion that they, or another hunting breed, like the Foxhounds she mentions, would give some added drive to belt through whatever is in their way to get to the game. So perhaps speed was the wrong word for me to use, but I still am inclined to believe MRW is right just based on what I know of what lurks in Salukis alone. Recall also that MRW makes criticisms of the side effects of doing these crosses so she's not a proponent, she's warning people to watch for traits that are typical of labradors and traits that are not.

[LisaCC]

SSM - it's not the speed per se but that is a by product of an intense desire to retrieve and run straight lines to the retrieve no matter what is in the way (water, cover, terrain etc). Also, the dog has to be able to mark the fall of the game, that is, judge depth incredibly well. Whilst there is no doubt training involved there really needs to be a large genetic component - looking back at my own dog I now can see that she showed quite a bit of natural marking ability as a very young pup. Put simply, dogs who won US field trials were bred to dogs who won US field trials. You don't get marks for "speed"...most points are allocated for line out and slightly less for line back, plus delivery, steadiness, peg work and style, eagerness and action. You get pinged for handling (especially on a marked retrieve) and disobeyed commands.

As I think Maddy said (apologies if I'm wrong), why on earth would you add Greyhound to the mix to increase a dog's desire to retrieve and tackle water?

Just in regards to the bolded part. I remember reading a blog about labradors being used for actual hunting (not trials), and that to them this was not a desired trait.

They preferred the dogs to think about the easiest way to get to the game, so the dog could preserve energy. It had a video demonstrating their dogs going for game with a fence and gate of differing heights in the road (some panels missing, some partly collapsed). Each dog in their pack had a go and you could see them look for the lowest place to go through rather than go in a straight line.

I found it really interesting, I might try and find that video again, because now I wonder if there is another conformation difference in labs bred for trialing and labs bred for true hunting.