Worrying Trend In The Show Ring

[mixeduppup]

Ok so I'll answer seriously as yesterday I was generally in a pissed off mood. My apologies to the people.

How much to hip scores really mean when the dog can hardly walk? Maybe we should have hock scores too? I agree that HW's top one was a vast improvement on the breed from what I've seen and I've seen a lot of showline GSDs that have competed and are going to compete in the ring. I'm glad they are now rewarding better conformation than before and the issues are being recognised. Congratulations to them.

I see it in kelpies also, the vast difference between bench and working. I agree that some bench have working instinct but you would rarely if ever see a bench in a true working environment for a variety of reasons.

I'm starting to wonder if genetics are being altered as we we remove the dog from its original purpose to show it. Like in the silver fox experiment where the foxes were bred to be more docile and changed body shape and colour. I wonder also if this could be a similar thing and not fully on purpose just evolution of two unique lines.

I don't believe this can be placed firmly in the hand of those showing dogs. As has been discussed here, performance dogs in a lot of breeds barely resemble the originals of their breed either.

I said evolution of two unique lines. Sometimes three for sporting lines. I think we have taken the breed and used it for so many different things (for breeds with a show/working/sporting split that we now have 3 totally different types for the job in hand. That's fine as long as it doesn't negatively impact the dog's ability to live day-to-day. I know someone that shows and competes in agility with their dogs (BCs) and their dogs a generally thicker set (not fat) and have a much denser coat compared to the person who just breeds for sporting and working and their lines are much less coat, much more streamlined and generally of a rather more intense temperament.

I know several people who show and do agility/obedience with their BC's and are hugely successful at both. One of our breeding won the Goldstein GOLD medal at the Sydney Royal last year. I believe this particular dog fits the breed standard as it is written and what we, as breeders, have to measure our stock by.

Yes I believe there can be a variation in "style" or "type" but basic conformation SHOULD be the same. Well in my opinion at least.

and I agree with you but there a plenty of people who think their style is correct for what they do, even if it differs from the actual breed standard. And that's what it gets down to people having different opinions and breeding what they like to do what they like.

[Aziah]

Always enjoyable reading posts written by people who refuse to clarify or back-up their claims of breeds being unsound

Thank you for the early morning dose of frustration mixeduppup (and that you are)!

Rude. Just because I chose not to respond due to being annoyed in my actual life and thought I would leave it til today. That's hardly a reason to say something like that. Remember real people are reading your words. kthnxbai

No, not rude. You were the person (a real person) yesterday who was shooting your mouth off, generalising that a breed was unsound.

No, not OK, thanks, bye.

Yes SOME German Shepherds are hock-y BUT they CAN walk (if they could not walk they would not be alive let alone be in the show ring).

Choose your words carefully; don't generalise or comment on something you know nothing about.

[Aziah]

Ok so I'll answer seriously as yesterday I was generally in a pissed off mood. My apologies to the people.

How much to hip scores really mean when the dog can hardly walk? Maybe we should have hock scores too? I agree that HW's top one was a vast improvement on the breed from what I've seen and I've seen a lot of showline GSDs that have competed and are going to compete in the ring. I'm glad they are now rewarding better conformation than before and the issues are being recognised. Congratulations to them.

I see it in kelpies also, the vast difference between bench and working. I agree that some bench have working instinct but you would rarely if ever see a bench in a true working environment for a variety of reasons.

I'm starting to wonder if genetics are being altered as we we remove the dog from its original purpose to show it. Like in the silver fox experiment where the foxes were bred to be more docile and changed body shape and colour. I wonder also if this could be a similar thing and not fully on purpose just evolution of two unique lines.

It's all about perception, you perceive movement differently to those people who own show-line GSDs -that doesn't give you the right to generalise that show-line GSD cannot walk.

[mixeduppup]

I'm sorry but any breed of dog that can't walk properly because it has been bred that way (one individual or a showline) should not be bred from anymore or bred to a dog with better hocks to improve and correct. The truth hurts but in my opinion and my opinion only I believe many of the showline dogs here and overseas are in obvious need of correction in the hind legs. I'm glad the dog HW posted won as that shows a recognition of better/correct conformation. But that's only my opinion so don't take it too much to heart.

[mixeduppup]

Always enjoyable reading posts written by people who refuse to clarify or back-up their claims of breeds being unsound

Thank you for the early morning dose of frustration mixeduppup (and that you are)!

Rude. Just because I chose not to respond due to being annoyed in my actual life and thought I would leave it til today. That's hardly a reason to say something like that. Remember real people are reading your words. kthnxbai

No, not rude. You were the person (a real person) yesterday who was shooting your mouth off, generalising that a breed was unsound.

No, not OK, thanks, bye.

Yes SOME German Shepherds are hock-y BUT they CAN walk (if they could not walk they would not be alive let alone be in the show ring).

Choose your words carefully; don't generalise or comment on something you know nothing about.

I said 'can't walk properly' go check.

[Aziah]

I'm sorry but any breed of dog that can't walk properly because it has been bred that way (one individual or a showline) should not be bred from anymore or bred to a dog with better hocks to improve and correct. The truth hurts but in my opinion and my opinion only I believe many of the showline dogs here and overseas are in obvious need of correction in the hind legs. I'm glad the dog HW posted won as that shows a recognition of better/correct conformation. But that's only my opinion so don't take it too much to heart.

I'm not taking it heart and you're still doing it. Your opinion that a dog cannot walk properly is your opinion but don't generalise.

[Aziah]

Always enjoyable reading posts written by people who refuse to clarify or back-up their claims of breeds being unsound

Thank you for the early morning dose of frustration mixeduppup (and that you are)!

Rude. Just because I chose not to respond due to being annoyed in my actual life and thought I would leave it til today. That's hardly a reason to say something like that. Remember real people are reading your words. kthnxbai

No, not rude. You were the person (a real person) yesterday who was shooting your mouth off, generalising that a breed was unsound.

No, not OK, thanks, bye.

Yes SOME German Shepherds are hock-y BUT they CAN walk (if they could not walk they would not be alive let alone be in the show ring).

Choose your words carefully; don't generalise or comment on something you know nothing about.

I said 'can't walk properly' go check.

So that's your opinion that they cannot walk properly what makes you an expert?

[mixeduppup]

I'm sorry but any breed of dog that can't walk properly because it has been bred that way (one individual or a showline) should not be bred from anymore or bred to a dog with better hocks to improve and correct. The truth hurts but in my opinion and my opinion only I believe many of the showline dogs here and overseas are in obvious need of correction in the hind legs. I'm glad the dog HW posted won as that shows a recognition of better/correct conformation. But that's only my opinion so don't take it too much to heart.

I'm not taking it heart and you're still doing it. Your opinion that a dog cannot walk properly is your opinion but don't generalise.

I'm not generalising I'm saying what i believe and what i have seen in reality (not on TV but in the world) and that is my opinion. I only ever stated it as such. If people want to take my opinion as a generalisation than that isn't my problem. I don't have to put a disclaimer on the end of everything I said.

[WreckitWhippet]

I'm sorry but any breed of dog that can't walk properly because it has been bred that way (one individual or a showline) should not be bred from anymore or bred to a dog with better hocks to improve and correct. The truth hurts but in my opinion and my opinion only I believe many of the showline dogs here and overseas are in obvious need of correction in the hind legs. I'm glad the dog HW posted won as that shows a recognition of better/correct conformation. But that's only my opinion so don't take it too much to heart.

so what is it about the hocks that needs to improve in your opinion to correct all of these GSD's that can't walk properly ?

First it was their back legs, now it's their hocks.

[Aziah]

I guess what I'm trying to get out of you mixeduppup is what is "can't walk properly" ?!

[Aziah]

Snap Wreckit!

[benshiva]

Mixeduppup, have you ever attended a GSD National? The workout that the dogs are put through at one of their specialties is VERY rigorous and there is no way an unsound dog could ever complete the workout these dogs have to do. The shows are truly amazing and I have to say, the top 10 open bitches at the last one I went to, gave me goosebumps. They were truly stunning animals.

[mixeduppup]

I'm sorry but any breed of dog that can't walk properly because it has been bred that way (one individual or a showline) should not be bred from anymore or bred to a dog with better hocks to improve and correct. The truth hurts but in my opinion and my opinion only I believe many of the showline dogs here and overseas are in obvious need of correction in the hind legs. I'm glad the dog HW posted won as that shows a recognition of better/correct conformation. But that's only my opinion so don't take it too much to heart.

so what is it about the hocks that needs to improve in your opinion to correct all of these GSD's that can't walk properly ?

First it was their back legs, now it's their hocks.

I don't know I'm not into anatomy. Maybe you should speak to a vet who specialises in GSDs if you're concerned. I have seen enough to know there is a problem but if people choose to ignore the obvious then i can't do anything about it. What i can do is acknowledge that the judges are (in Australia at least) rewarding the correct dogs so hopefully breeders will see this and adjust accordingly. That's all i will say. I'll leave the thread now as with all DOL conversations people have their own opinions and are immovable and I truly appreciate all differing opinions/standpoints and I have stated mine. Enjoy your chat :) Seeya

[Aziah]

I'm sorry but any breed of dog that can't walk properly because it has been bred that way (one individual or a showline) should not be bred from anymore or bred to a dog with better hocks to improve and correct. The truth hurts but in my opinion and my opinion only I believe many of the showline dogs here and overseas are in obvious need of correction in the hind legs. I'm glad the dog HW posted won as that shows a recognition of better/correct conformation. But that's only my opinion so don't take it too much to heart.

so what is it about the hocks that needs to improve in your opinion to correct all of these GSD's that can't walk properly ?

First it was their back legs, now it's their hocks.

I don't know I'm not into anatomy. Maybe you should speak to a vet who specialises in GSDs if you're concerned. I have seen enough to know there is a problem but if people choose to ignore the obvious then i can't do anything about it. What i can do is acknowledge that the judges are (in Australia at least) rewarding the correct dogs so hopefully breeders will see this and adjust accordingly. That's all i will say. I'll leave the thread now as with all DOL conversations people have their own opinions and are immovable and I truly appreciate all differing opinions/standpoints and I have stated mine. Enjoy your chat :) Seeya

You're not into anatomy = you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Thankyou for leaving this thread and ceasing to talk/generalise about something you know nothing about.

:)

[WreckitWhippet]

It took me a while to find this quote but I think it very relevant with all of the discussion about "type" and what people prefer or like.

It's a good reminder for the novice and the seasoned breeder alike.

There is but ONE standard. “Preferred breed type” is like a flavor of the month, very fleeting! BREEDERS, JUDGES AND EXHIBITORS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THEIR BREED STANDARDS

.

[benshiva]

It took me a while to find this quote but I think it very relevant with all of the discussion about "type" and what people prefer or like.

It's a good reminder for the novice and the seasoned breeder alike.

There is but ONE standard. "Preferred breed type" is like a flavor of the month, very fleeting! BREEDERS, JUDGES AND EXHIBITORS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THEIR BREED STANDARDS

.

Excellent quote!

[Salukifan]

I don't know I'm not into anatomy. Maybe you should speak to a vet who specialises in GSDs if you're concerned. I have seen enough to know there is a problem but if people choose to ignore the obvious then i can't do anything about it. What i can do is acknowledge that the judges are (in Australia at least) rewarding the correct dogs so hopefully breeders will see this and adjust accordingly. That's all i will say. I'll leave the thread now as with all DOL conversations people have their own opinions and are immovable and I truly appreciate all differing opinions/standpoints and I have stated mine. Enjoy your chat :) Seeya

Then I would politely suggest that you need to see more. Caning GSDs is a popular pursuit (as evidenced by Pedigree Dogs Exposed) and I for one have engaged in it in the past when I knew far less and shot my mouth off far more. The dog you like has won BIS at shows in your area - go and see him and the other top GSDs for yourself.

With dog related opinions, as with many things, the more you know, the less you are inclined to be a mouth piece for a popular sentiment and the more likely you are to see the facets of a particular issue.

I doubt you attend that many GSD specialty shows MUP or that you know many top GSD breeders. Those are issues that you should redress before pronouncing judgement on issues. Otherwise, you end up where you are now - defending an opinion with very little knowledge and leaving the kitchen to escape the heat.

As do many of us from time to time.

[Aziah]

I don't know I'm not into anatomy. Maybe you should speak to a vet who specialises in GSDs if you're concerned. I have seen enough to know there is a problem but if people choose to ignore the obvious then i can't do anything about it. What i can do is acknowledge that the judges are (in Australia at least) rewarding the correct dogs so hopefully breeders will see this and adjust accordingly. That's all i will say. I'll leave the thread now as with all DOL conversations people have their own opinions and are immovable and I truly appreciate all differing opinions/standpoints and I have stated mine. Enjoy your chat :) Seeya

Then I would politely suggest that you need to see more. Caning GSDs is a popular pursuit (as evidenced by Pedigree Dogs Exposed) and I for one have engaged in it in the past when I knew far less and shot my mouth off far more. The dog you like has won BIS at shows in your area - go and see him and the other top GSDs for yourself.

With dog related opinions, as with many things, the more you know, the less you are inclined to be a mouth piece for a popular sentiment and the more likely you are to see the facets of a particular issue.

I doubt you attend that many GSD specialty shows MUP or that you know many top GSD breeders. Those are issues that you should redress before pronouncing judgement on issues. Otherwise, you end up where you are now - defending an opinion with very little knowledge and leaving the kitchen to escape the heat.

As do many of us from time to time.

Eloquently put as always :)

No one is perfect but this particular topic of cripple GSDs makes me wild...

[benshiva]

I don't know I'm not into anatomy. Maybe you should speak to a vet who specialises in GSDs if you're concerned. I have seen enough to know there is a problem but if people choose to ignore the obvious then i can't do anything about it. What i can do is acknowledge that the judges are (in Australia at least) rewarding the correct dogs so hopefully breeders will see this and adjust accordingly. That's all i will say. I'll leave the thread now as with all DOL conversations people have their own opinions and are immovable and I truly appreciate all differing opinions/standpoints and I have stated mine. Enjoy your chat :) Seeya

Then I would politely suggest that you need to see more. Caning GSDs is a popular pursuit (as evidenced by Pedigree Dogs Exposed) and I for one have engaged in it in the past when I knew far less and shot my mouth off far more. The dog you like has won BIS at shows in your area - go and see him and the other top GSDs for yourself.

With dog related opinions, as with many things, the more you know, the less you are inclined to be a mouth piece for a popular sentiment and the more likely you are to see the facets of a particular issue.

I doubt you attend that many GSD specialty shows MUP or that you know many top GSD breeders. Those are issues that you should redress before pronouncing judgement on issues. Otherwise, you end up where you are now - defending an opinion with very little knowledge and leaving the kitchen to escape the heat.

As do many of us from time to time.

Eloquently put as always :)

No one is perfect but this particular topic of cripple GSDs makes me wild...

It annoys me as well, especially when those protesting the loudest (and there have been MANY over the years on DOL) have rarely even been to a specialty and seen these dogs REALLY go through their paces. It's a sight to behold. I a good way that is :)

[Rebanne]

The more you learn the less you know, and be sparse with your thoughts. The less you know the more you need to learn, and run off at the mouth to prove it.