Worrying Trend In The Show Ring

[labadore]

My show bred boy is the most chilled out boy at home, but step outside the front gate and he is ready for action, he is athletic and energetic and loves to be on the go. :)

I am currently sorting through some very recent close up pics of him that I am going to post later for you to critique and appraise as I will be interested in the variety of judgements/comments as they will be based on each person's 'perception' of a Labrador. I have critiqued the OP's pic of their working line (I believe bred by Guide dogs) by saying that their dog is too lean based on my perception of what I think a Labrador should be/look like, so I need to open my dog up to scrutiny as well :D Whilst he is show bred, I do not show him.

Ok finally here are some very recent (26/4 & yesterday) closeup pics of my show bred boy that will give you an idea on his body shape and condition, he will be 5 years old in Sept. The other Lab boy in the 2nd last pic is my recent rescue boy who is 6½ years old who I adopted through one of the Lab rescue orgs. Please feel free to critique my boy as it will then give us an indication on people's perception of what a Labrador should look like and what they perceive the body condition to be. Any other Lab owners are welcome to post pics of their Labs :)

[The Spotted Devil]

I've always acknowledged that competition can change dogs if performance titles are all that is taken notice of. That's the nature of competition. I took my Springer rough hunting last weekend so I could begin to understand her natural ability.

Do those who suggest that US type field bred Labradors are the result of Greyhound crosses also suggest that pedigrees have therefore been falsified?

[aussielover]

They are very cute labradore! I think your older boy is more similar to my dog in type. With the other one, this is a dog I'd have to touch in person to condition score, but I don't think he's overweight at a glance. He has a lovely happy face :)

[LisaCC]

Labadore your boy looks gorgeous, handsome face I don't have any photos on this computer of my boy before he got sick, but in peak condition he had a similar body type.

The closest I have of him being 'healthy" is this photo. Keep in mind he had muscle wastage in the head from previous IBD flare ups and consequent drugs, and muscle wastage in the hind from DM He was 10 in this, about 5 months before he passed.

Edited June 12, 2014 by LisaCC

[espinay2]

Spotted Devil, I doubt pedigrees were 'falsified' but Mary Roslin Williams is worth reading or listening to if you haven't done so as she was a wealth of information on the development of the breed and saw the effects of changes in the UK in particular first hand. Her insight into what actually happened and how the breed was influenced by outside crosses is invaluable for anyone trying to understand the Labrador in all its forms. She was a very highly respected person in her breed (and in general in the dog world).

[The Spotted Devil]

I agree with you - how else do breeds develop with a healthy genetic variation but to have infusions from other breeds. But I thought we were specifically discussing American field bred Labs and why they are more leggy. My mistake perhaps.

And I am a huge fan of the outcross actually - LUA Dalmatians being a case in point.

[Christina]

Marvellous that the pet owners here know more about specific breeds than some of the most learned judges in the country. ie, labradors, and Westminster. Of course the judge wouldn't know a good labrador. He has probably never seen one.

:laugh: Love that.

Re the photos in the first post. I like the winner. I want to feed the other dog.

Watching Tv tonight the programme was about weight. Seems that thin does not mean healthy which is a concept many people don't understand. Health & fitness are not indicated by weight. Standards do vary from country to country. The winning dog is not fat, maybe heavier boned than some.

[sandgrubber]

HW - just trying to clarify. Are you of the understanding that Labs in the US were CROSSED with Greys?

No. Williams was a much respected breeder, judge, and fancier in the UK. She is stationg that Labs in the UK were crossed with Greys . . . and in other places she suggests other hounds. The US scene is/was different, as breeders were not typically landed gentry (with packs of dog that do get mixed) and the rules of field competition were/are different.

[sandgrubber]

It took me a while to find this quote but I think it very relevant with all of the discussion about "type" and what people prefer or like.

It's a good reminder for the novice and the seasoned breeder alike.

There is but ONE standard. “Preferred breed type” is like a flavor of the month, very fleeting! BREEDERS, JUDGES AND EXHIBITORS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THEIR BREED STANDARDS

.

There is but one breed standard if you judge by 'conformation'. Some people judge their dogs by something other than conformation, eg, performance, temperament, health, movement. Technically, the breed standard covers temperament and movement, but the ring doesn't provide an great forum for evaluation and these things sometimes get put in the 'too hard basket'. Not to judge the judges. I couldn't evaluate 10+ dogs in 5 minutes, as often happens in the ring. And if I were a blind person relying on a Labrador, I would not care if it has strong retrieving instinct or was a good water dog. I might hope it has a 'poor' coat by breed standards so the dog would have better tolerance of heat ... and shed a little less.

With respect to Labradors, I'm happy there's a great variety. I think it's healthy for the breed. The original purpose of the dog -- landed gentry's fetch dog, or before that 'dog that catches fish that have slipped off an unbarbed hook and is also good for some game hunting, pulling carts, etc.' -- is long gone. I love the breed and am happy to see it move into Guide Dog and drug sniffing work. I can see that some of the traits in the original purpose become irrelevant in the new purposes.

It's the carping that bothers me. I get p.o.'d when someone tries to slander a dog as fat when they have no evidence of fat . . . may just be a well boned, heavyset dog with a thick coat.

But this is the thing, regardless of how judges in the ring judge, the breed standard reverts back the original function of the breed. The breed standard may not specifically point out performance, but the way the dog is conformed and thus, the way the breed standard is set out, does. Unfortunately many judges and breeders decide to disregard the standard and go for 'fads'.

It is the responsibility of not just the breeder, but the potential owner as well to understand that. To hope that your Labrador ' has a poor coat by breed standards because I don't want it to shed as much' is silly. Surely you would just go for another breed? It it's true that a blind person wouldn't care, but where the dog comes from ( the breeder) would and that is what keeps the Labrador being a Labrador.

The fact that they are great at drug work and seeing eye and all of those things is because of the gundog traits, again going back the original function of the dog and group itself. They are and were bred to work with the handler.

Yes, but Guide Dogs tends to prefer less heavily built dogs and doesn't give a hoot about otter tail or thick double coat. They do not not like dogs of the 'Arnold' type because the coat is too thick and the stature, unnecessarily heavy, and there's no value to being a water dog. Soft mouth and retreiving instinct don't matter much either if there's strong bite inhibition. Labs are not the only breed that was bred to work with the handler.

[sandgrubber]

I've always acknowledged that competition can change dogs if performance titles are all that is taken notice of. That's the nature of competition. I took my Springer rough hunting last weekend so I could begin to understand her natural ability.

Do those who suggest that US type field bred Labradors are the result of Greyhound crosses also suggest that pedigrees have therefore been falsified?

Williams is not explicit on this point. She does say that dogs of different breeds were allowed to run together in the English countryside, and that it wasn't always clear which dog (or dogs) sired what litter. Purity seems to have become a greater concern in the decades after WWII.

I seem to remember a story about a puppy from one of the Queen's Labs being given away and it kept growing to an enormous size . . . at which point they decided it must have been a Newfie x Lab. So breed mixing still goes on, even in the 'best' (from the perspective of Hyacinth Bucket) circles. Who is going to seriously question it if it happens in a prestigious kennel?

[Brandiandwe]

I found Labadore's photos interesting because at first glance I thought 'too fat'. Which REALLY serves notice to me about how much my eye has been educated by my breed, greyhounds. So all the points on the body I use to check my dogs for weight and condition (hip bones, spine, ribs, tuck) as well as visible muscle (short thin coat) are missing because I'm not looking at a greyhound or other sighthound so he can't be judged by me on that basis. So my eye is lost and I'm left with wanting to touch him to feel for muscle tone, ribs.

He's lovely though!

[The Spotted Devil]

HW - just trying to clarify. Are you of the understanding that Labs in the US were CROSSED with Greys?

No. Williams was a much respected breeder, judge, and fancier in the UK. She is stationg that Labs in the UK were crossed with Greys . . . and in other places she suggests other hounds. The US scene is/was different, as breeders were not typically landed gentry (with packs of dog that do get mixed) and the rules of field competition were/are different.

Thanks SG - that makes sense. As I said earlier I thought we were discussing American field Labs specifically.

[Tapua]

I agree I dislike overweight Labs it compromises topline and overall look and its just plain wrong. I have lost places because my dogs are said to be too athletic but I prefer fit over fat any day. This is one of my girls Pania at Sydney Royal last year.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Tapua

[Tapua]

This is my BYB Lab at around age 4 - in prime condition and just the way I like her to be.

Still looks very much the same but a bit more "solid" now at age 8... and weighs in at 26-27kg.

I'd like to see some of the Labs I've seen in the showring (admittedly I've only seen them at the Sydney Royal) just a bit leaner looking - like this gorgeous looking girl...

T.

Glad you like her and that would be my bitch Tapua Kura Junior bitch at Sydney Royal this year :)

[melzawelza]

I agree I dislike overweight Labs it compromises topline and overall look and its just plain wrong. I have lost places because my dogs are said to be too athletic but I prefer fit over fat any day. This is one of my girls Pania at Sydney Royal last year.

See - that is the difference between fat and not fat. No one expects Labs to look like conditioned APBT's or Greyhounds, just for them not to be carrying loads of excess weight and to have reasonable muscle tone. Your dog is gorgeous Tapua and it's disheartening to hear you've lost points for the dogs being 'too athletic'!

[VizslaMomma]

I agree I dislike overweight Labs it compromises topline and overall look and its just plain wrong. I have lost places because my dogs are said to be too athletic but I prefer fit over fat any day. This is one of my girls Pania at Sydney Royal last year.

I recall seeing both of them!

Both are beauties.

Edited June 12, 2014 by VizslaMomma

[Tapua]

I agree I dislike overweight Labs it compromises topline and overall look and its just plain wrong. I have lost places because my dogs are said to be too athletic but I prefer fit over fat any day. This is one of my girls Pania at Sydney Royal last year.

See - that is the difference between fat and not fat. No one expects Labs to look like conditioned APBT's or Greyhounds, just for them not to be carrying loads of excess weight and to have reasonable muscle tone. Your dog is gorgeous Tapua and it's disheartening to hear you've lost points for the dogs being 'too athletic'!

Eh I am used to it but they are consistent in the ring and I am proud of that we gained 2 1st and a second at the Royal this year and a 1st/a 2nd & 2 3rds at the speciality. To me they rank higher than a general specials win any day :)I am much more prouder of my quiet achievers with 3 gaining their RN, & CCD in he last 12 months :) then there are the service dogs - I like my dogs to have a purposeful life.

[Steve]

I agree I dislike overweight Labs it compromises topline and overall look and its just plain wrong. I have lost places because my dogs are said to be too athletic but I prefer fit over fat any day. This is one of my girls Pania at Sydney Royal last year.

See - that is the difference between fat and not fat. No one expects Labs to look like conditioned APBT's or Greyhounds, just for them not to be carrying loads of excess weight and to have reasonable muscle tone. Your dog is gorgeous Tapua and it's disheartening to hear you've lost points for the dogs being 'too athletic'!

Eh I am used to it but they are consistent in the ring and I am proud of that we gained 2 1st and a second at the Royal this year and a 1st/a 2nd & 2 3rds at the speciality. To me they rank higher than a general specials win any day :)I am much more prouder of my quiet achievers with 3 gaining their RN, & CCD in he last 12 months :) then there are the service dogs - I like my dogs to have a purposeful life.

[Dame Aussie]

Tapua, your dogs look perfect.

[labadore]

Tapua, what were the ages of your gorgeous girls when those pics were taken, as in fairness we cannot compare pups/youngsters to fully developed matured adults and it would be very helpful to know their ages at time pics taken. I know first hand the big changes that occur during a Labrador's development to maturity and of course the difference in sizes between females and males :)

Edited June 12, 2014 by labadore