Worrying Trend In The Show Ring

[Salukifan]

another expert pet owner with nothing to add to the conversation except dis the show lines and bugger off.

I thought the pics I posted were of quite moderate dogs and that is what is winning now. I've been in the same ring as Hero and believe me he has no trouble moving.. quite the contrary.

[LisaCC]

I thought the pics I posted were of quite moderate dogs and that is what is winning now. I've been in the same ring as Hero and believe me he has no trouble moving.. quite the contrary.

I personally prefer WL GSDs, but I agree HW, the dogs you posted are quite moderate compared to some. I particularly like the first one.

[Jed]

Like a lot of breeds this one has also become more extreme.

which one's and by more extreme what do you mean and is it to the detriment of the breed or the individual dog ?

From what I've seen of past dogs in the lab breed and dogs in the breed today (talking showlines) the labs tend be much shorter, heavier and chunkier than the dogs of old. Hence they have become more extreme in the description of the standard. But that's just my opinion.

you said " like a lot of breeds", do you care to explain which one's and what you feel is now extreme about them and if it's to the detriment of the breed or individual?

GSDs and their back legs for example. That is to the detriment of the whole showline.

What is wrong with their back legs? And how is it to the detriment of the whole showline? If you don't mind explaining, please.

And what other breeds do you mean?

[huski]

I am no GSD expert but i can say from my experience the number one reason a dog isn't suitable for work is because it lacks the genetics required (drive, nerve, temperament etc). Not because of conformation or an inability to "walk properly".

Edited June 10, 2014 by huski

[Salukifan]

I thought the pics I posted were of quite moderate dogs and that is what is winning now. I've been in the same ring as Hero and believe me he has no trouble moving.. quite the contrary.

I personally prefer WL GSDs, but I agree HW, the dogs you posted are quite moderate compared to some. I particularly like the first one.

And THAT is what is winning in the show ring now. I accept that people love to cane the GSD (Pedigree Dogs Exposed anyone?) but it does pay to actually look at what is winning in the show ring and consider that before sharing that dogma around.

It might pay those currently caning the Labrador to look at the top dogs here on DOL too. They are heavier than I like personally but they are not obese.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Jed]

Sorry, HW I do have an issue with froggy faced WM ponies with eyes like saucers and tiny bone which couldn't carry a Welsh farmer up a hill. Like Dresden ornaments. But the farmers have motorbikes now. LOL

I have an issue with Arabians with a jibbah so huge you wonder they can breathe, and herring gutted.

I have an issue with qh which are tied in below the knee, with straight pasterns and overly long cannons.

But ... this is a dog forum.

Probably need a Bex and a nice silver Labrador.

[LisaCC]

I thought the pics I posted were of quite moderate dogs and that is what is winning now. I've been in the same ring as Hero and believe me he has no trouble moving.. quite the contrary.

I personally prefer WL GSDs, but I agree HW, the dogs you posted are quite moderate compared to some. I particularly like the first one.

And THAT is what is winning in the show ring now. I accept that people love to cane the GSD (Pedigree Dogs Exposed anyone?) but it does pay to actually look at what is winning in the show ring and consider that before sharing that dogma around.

It might pay those currently caning the Labrador to look at the top dogs here on DOL too. They are heavier than I like personally but they are not obese.

Is that just the first bit replying to me? Because I like show labs

[Salukifan]

Sorry, HW I do have an issue with froggy faced WM ponies with eyes like saucers and tiny bone which couldn't carry a Welsh farmer up a hill. Like Dresden ornaments. But the farmers have motorbikes now. LOL

I have an issue with Arabians with a jibbah so huge you wonder they can breathe, and herring gutted.

I have an issue with qh which are tied in below the knee, with straight pasterns and overly long cannons.

But ... this is a dog forum.

Probably need a Bex and a nice silver Labrador.

Nah, go brindle. At least that does occur in the breed.

[trifecta]

Once upon a time, the gundog reined supreme in the obedience ring. The sport was developed, after all, as a basic test of the obedience of a gundog. They were taught to heel on the left for a reason. Now the sport has evolved beyond them. Do we change the breed to suit the sport? A lighter, more lithe dog would certainly be able to do wrap style heeling better.

HW, don't get me started on this, I have never owned a gundog, always working breeds for me, but I yearn for the days when dogs actually heeled in parallel with their handlers :laugh:

IME gundogs are still quite popular in obedience, but you definitely see a lot of herding breeds competing and winning now. I am sure 'back in the day' you wouldn't see many of the breeds we see competing now!

ETA: I have seen some Goldens with beautiful stylised heel work in obed, Bridget Carlsen from the US springs to mind.

I wasn't talking about the breeds, huski, I am talking about the style.... it's also not that long ago either, the trend for wrap style heeling has definitely increased within the last 5 years or so. I do not like a dog that wraps around my leg, but prefer one that keeps one ear & one eye on me but basically looks forward..... & for what it's worth, if you compete with a Belgian Shepherd it will know what you are thinking before you even start the action so why does it have to be wrapped around your leg? :laugh:

[huski]

I wasn't talking about the breeds, huski, I am talking about the style.... it's also not that long ago either, the trend for wrap style heeling has definitely increased within the last 5 years or so. I do not like a dog that wraps around my leg, but prefer one that keeps one ear & one eye on me but basically looks forward..... & for what it's worth, if you compete with a Belgian Shepherd it will know what you are thinking before you even start the action so why does it have to be wrapped around your leg? :laugh:

When I go to a trial it's still extremely uncommon to see fully attentive stylised heel work (I have never seen more than two, maybe three dogs at a single trial that would heel that way consistently). But I do think as a sport on a whole it's definitely become more desirable and dogs that win on a world level, win with stylised heel work. There's a reason for that (on it's own it's not rewarded for in points so there is other benefit).

I don't personally train a wrap around (or UK) style of heel work but I like my dogs heads up with 110% focus on my face. I like my dog to heel in drive because I like to have a very "up" dog with high level of precision and consistency.

Yes it's probably quite removed from how heel work was originally, but obedience is a sport, not something I train for practical reasons but to be competitive. Heel work as an exercise can be really boring for a dog, so I find it impressive to see a dog do it with so much joy and drive.

ETA; focus on my face isn't something I train for specifically, it's a by product of the way I train, would be hard to get them to look elsewhere :laugh:

Edited June 10, 2014 by huski

[trifecta]

No one seems to have hissy fits with halter and running Quarter horses, with halter and endurance Arabs and with the various types of Welsh Mountain ponies. What's the big deal?

You gotta be joking :laugh: For the last 30 years the halter Arabian horse has got further & further away from the performance Arabian..... & now with more interest in the desert racing Arabian, the Arabian breed is changing again, a lot of breeders have turned away from the compact Crabbet type to breed a stretchy, taller type, more suitable for the racetrack & in particular the lucrative 40km desert races of the UAE.

[Salukifan]

No one seems to have hissy fits with halter and running Quarter horses, with halter and endurance Arabs and with the various types of Welsh Mountain ponies. What's the big deal?

You gotta be joking :laugh: For the last 30 years the halter Arabian horse has got further & further away from the performance Arabian..... & now with more interest in the desert racing Arabian, the Arabian breed is changing again, a lot of breeders have turned away from the compact Crabbet type to breed a stretchy, taller type, more suitable for the racetrack & in particular the lucrative 40km desert races of the UAE.

Are people saying that there is only one correct type and the others shouldn't exist?

[trifecta]

No one seems to have hissy fits with halter and running Quarter horses, with halter and endurance Arabs and with the various types of Welsh Mountain ponies. What's the big deal?

You gotta be joking :laugh: For the last 30 years the halter Arabian horse has got further & further away from the performance Arabian..... & now with more interest in the desert racing Arabian, the Arabian breed is changing again, a lot of breeders have turned away from the compact Crabbet type to breed a stretchy, taller type, more suitable for the racetrack & in particular the lucrative 40km desert races of the UAE.

Are people saying that there is only one correct type and the others shouldn't exist?

Yes the racing type is much taller, many individuals now are measured at 15.3hh & even 16 hands. While there is no standard height, commonly the Arabian horse stood between 14.1 - 15.1hh. The incidence of taller individuals is much higher these days. The French horses in particular look like Anglos (Thoroughbred x Arabian).

Sorry, I didn't really address your question, but yes there is heated debate. :)

Edited June 10, 2014 by trifecta

[labadore]

Interesting that the OP holds their Labrador up as an example of what they expect a Labrador to look like . IMHO your Labrador is too lean and if I am not mistaken, she is an ex guide dog from working lines isn't she? I believe that the only time a Labrador should be kept lean is when there is a health/medical condition e.g. hip/elbow displaysia.

I don't personally abide by the working/field line labs, they are not representative of what a Labrador should be and they are not bred to a standard like the show/bench Labs are and apart from conformation issues in the working/field line labs, temperaments in some of these lines are also questionable.

I have owned multiple Labs over many years with one being from working/field lines as he was an ex working dog and I adopted him when he retired. I have had two of my Labs live until 15 years of age, this ex working dog and one from show/bench lines who was a big solid boy, bred to standard and I lost him in Feb this year at 15 yrs, 8 months old, he was my longest living Lab.

My current two Lab boys 4½ yrs and 6½ yrs are both purebred boys, with the youngest one I have had since a pup and the other I recently adopted, but I have his pedigree papers (limited register). The youngest is from a top Labrador breeder and whilst my rescue boy does have some of the same pedigree in his lines that my youngest has, they do look pretty different as my youngster is a big solid and very strong boy who has been able to fully develop as nature intended as I have kept him intact, but my rescue boy was neutered around the 6month mark and has a noticeably smaller head and neck/chest area than my youngster.

Everyone has an opinion on what a Labrador should look like and whilst there are many overweight/obese Labs out there, I see a lot in my outings with my boys, you cannot compare show/bench lines with working field lines, they look like totally different dogs. I just don't get why people compare the two, they are apples and oranges and it annoys me also that people think that a Labrador bred to standard cannot do the job they were intended to do. The Labrador bred to standard is an energetic dog built for endurance, not built for agility and running at great speeds for long distances, people who expect this from a Labrador normally end up with the working/field line type. Also you cannot compare males and females, vast differences between the genders and there is also differences between neutered/intact, desexed/entire within the genders and some of these differences are like night and day particularly if the neutering/desexing was done before the growth plates closed and the Labrador had not fully matured. My youngest boy was still developing muscle mass up until he was around 3 years of age at which stage I considered him to be fully matured. :)

[huski]

I don't personally abide by the working/field line labs, they are not representative of what a Labrador should be and they are not bred to a standard like the show/bench Labs are

To play devils advocate for a moment, if those labs are the ones out there actually working and fulfilling their original purpose and doing well at it, how could they be poor representations of "what a Labrador should be" ? How are they any less a good example of the breed than the dogs strutting around a show ring that aren't proven working dogs? Shouldn't the standard they are bred to be the one that produces the best working type? I'm sure if you asked the handlers who do use them for retrieving they would say "who cares as long as our dogs are fit, healthy and work well".

I think there are poor examples of every breed in both "splits" (where there are splits). You can't generalize and say all dogs of working or show type are bad.

Also you cannot compare males and females, vast differences between the genders and there is also differences between neutered/intact, desexed/entire within the genders and some of these differences are like night and day particularly if the neutering/desexing was done before the growth plates closed and the Labrador had not fully matured.

Should there be such vast differences between sexes when they are bred to the same standard

Edited June 10, 2014 by huski

[LisaCC]

I don't personally abide by the working/field line labs, they are not representative of what a Labrador should be and they are not bred to a standard like the show/bench Labs are

To play devils advocate for a moment, if those labs are the ones out there actually working and fulfilling their original purpose and doing well at it, how could they be poor representations of "what a Labrador should be" ? How are they any less a good example of the breed than the dogs strutting around a show ring that aren't proven working dogs? Shouldn't the standard they are bred to be the one that produces the best working type? I'm sure if you asked the handlers who do use them for retrieving they would say "who cares as long as our dogs are fit, healthy and work well".

I think there are poor examples of every breed in both "splits" (where there are splits). You can't generalize and say all dogs of working or show type are bad.

Also you cannot compare males and females, vast differences between the genders and there is also differences between neutered/intact, desexed/entire within the genders and some of these differences are like night and day particularly if the neutering/desexing was done before the growth plates closed and the Labrador had not fully matured.

Should there be such vast differences between sexes when they are bred to the same standard

Todays field labs aren't retrieving ducks and fish from icy waters, it's no longer the "original purpose". The purpose has changed to a different type of retrieving, the dogs have changed with it.

Male labs are often heavier than the females.

[huski]

Todays field labs aren't retrieving ducks and fish from icy waters, it's no longer the "original purpose". The purpose has changed to a different type of retrieving, the dogs have changed with it.

Male labs are often heavier than the females.

But isn't that the same for just about any breed, males usually are heavier than females and I wouldn't call that a "vast difference".

I don't know much about labs and don't claim to, but with any breed that has a working/show line split, it always bothers me to hear generalizations about either. I've seen good and bad dogs from both show and working lines. If a dog is fit and healthy and working well, why would the person working them care if someone biased toward show types felt their dogs don't conform to their interpretation of the breed standard. The same goes if someone breeds show line dogs that possess all the qualities the breed should have.

Even show lines within different breeds have many different types and lines that people both love and hate.

[Salukifan]

If you have to train a dog to retrieve to hand by force fetching, then surely how fit the dog is for its original purpose also must be questioned?

It seems some ARE questioning it. This article makes interesting reading.

Seems that the Americans are having to compensate for the manner in which they have modified the Labrador for field trialling whereas the British still rely on selective breeding.

I find the idea of hard mouthed dogs in this breed of far more concern than excess body weight.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[labadore]

I don't personally abide by the working/field line labs, they are not representative of what a Labrador should be and they are not bred to a standard like the show/bench Labs are

To play devils advocate for a moment, if those labs are the ones out there actually working and fulfilling their original purpose and doing well at it, how could they be poor representations of "what a Labrador should be" ? How are they any less a good example of the breed than the dogs strutting around a show ring that aren't proven working dogs? Shouldn't the standard they are bred to be the one that produces the best working type? I'm sure if you asked the handlers who do use them for retrieving they would say "who cares as long as our dogs are fit, healthy and work well".

I think there are poor examples of every breed in both "splits" (where there are splits). You can't generalize and say all dogs of working or show type are bad.

Also you cannot compare males and females, vast differences between the genders and there is also differences between neutered/intact, desexed/entire within the genders and some of these differences are like night and day particularly if the neutering/desexing was done before the growth plates closed and the Labrador had not fully matured.

Should there be such vast differences between sexes when they are bred to the same standard

Of course I can generalise, I have been around Labradors for many years and have seen the changes and I don't like the changes with the development of the working line because people wanted Labradors to do things they weren't bred to do and in doing so changed their actual appearance and in many cases the temperament. Many of these working line/field types are highly strung and very hyper and not ideal as pets for the general public. The ex working boy I adopted was actually a great dog and I loved this boy dearly, but he was pretty highly strung and hyper even well into his old age and would have been a handful for inexperienced owners, even at retirement age.

I don't understand why you are confused that there are differences between the genders, males are taller, bigger, heavier and stronger than the females. Maybe the choice of "vast" wasn't correct, but the diffence is definitely noticeable and allowed for in the standard.

Its obvious you prefer the working lines and I don't, nothing wrong with that, your choice, my choice. Not all changes are good changes and I don't like the fact my beloved breed has split into two types, end of story.

[Rebanne]

I am confused why anyone would be confused that there are differences between the sexes. You should always be able to tell by a glance who is a dog and who is a bitch.