Does Anyone Read Or Care About This Topic?

[Salukifan]

The best breeders don't breed a dog because its pure, they breed it because its good.

It's not about "purity" - you've got that wrong.

It's about knowledge of ancestry and predicability of progeny. Pedigree breeders think the dog is better BECAUSE it has a pedigree.

And not every pedigree dog by the way.

If people want to breed to a code of conduct and lack knowledge, they can join, adhere to that code of conduct and gain it.

But I would never suggest that the ANKC is the font of all knowledge when it comes to dog breeding or that every ANKC breeder IS knowledgeable. Perhaps more knowledgeable than some others but that's it.

However you're asking the equivalent of a specialty car club to teach all car owners to drive. That's not what the ANKC is about.

That's why the State Departments of Primary Industry or their equivalents are now playing in this space. Commercial dog breeding is a relatively new venture and the DPIs are weighing in on it. The State CCs have enough of a battle getting states to differentiate between large scale profit breeders and their hobby breeders without taking on the load of the occasional crossbred breeders who do not financially contribute to their running.

It's ironic we're having this discussion on a forum dedicated to the promotion of purebred dogs and funded in part by their breeders. Look at the education of the general public that occurs here - including purebred dog breeders helping people that bought pups other sources.

How many times do we see breeders refusing use of commonly used publications or media because they don't approve of the company?

Can you give an example?

Edited June 2, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[moosmum]

H.W (Tried to reply to specific lines in your post and deleted quote tags)

The benefits you mention for associate members with mixed breed dogs are given on condition those dogs genes will not be passed on. The benefits come with an acceptance of suppression.

Breed specific legislation is entirely dependent on recognition of breeds as specific.It has far more to do with pure breeds than their mixes.

The ANKC isn't suppressing crossbred breeding. It's suppressing its members from doing it. Membership is voluntary and given that ANKC bred pups represent 20% of those born every year, I don't see how its suppressing breeding?

Don't like the rules? Don't join. Not hard really. You won't get an ANKC pedigree for what you breed? Is that "suppression"?

None of the currently banned breeds are or have ever been recognised by the ANKC.

BSL is a utter nonsense. But you can't blame the ANKC for its existence. it has far more to do with purebreeds than their mixes because the people who came up with it know SFA about dogs. Don't sheet that home to an organisation that does not and never has supported it.

Powerlegs:

Moosmum I was wondering the same thing, really if the federal govt wipes the agreement with the ANKC then they have registered pedigrees on a platter. What is there to stop that happening?

The Federal Government doesn't have an agreement with the ANKC. There is no federal breed specific legisatiion beyond the placement of 4 breeds on the banned from import list.

I wish it were that simple H.D.

Suppressing just its members from cross breeding removes a bridge between pedigree dogs to their environment, the communities who will own them. It stands in the way of a more balanced approach for both sides. Consensus can't be reached for agreement on what best practices should mean, or what we, as the environment for dogs, should expect of them. Reg. Breeders struggle to meet K.Cs demands from within 1st, before they can meet the demands from outside the K.Cs.

Reliability is an environmental construct. The environment the K.Cs exist in has no way to connect with the environment outside itself.

I don't lay all the blame for these problems on the K.Cs. I don't for a minute believe these were intentional results of their charter and rules. I do think that the people who originaly put the charter and rules together made mistakes tho', and that current members have a hard time understanding where they lie. Thats part of the taboo on mixed lines. Its in our nature not to look too closely or objectively at a taboo subject.

Because there HAS been a line drawn by the K.Cs, What I say can't be seen as a way forward. Its not accepted as environmental input because it doesn't come from within the K.C or reflect what they CURRENTLY stand for. So instead its seen as a personal attack.

Its not meant to be. I want the same thing you do. The success of the K.Cs and our pure breed dogs into the future. Human beings seem to think because they have self determination, their populations are immune to biological laws. But self determination can only be had by understanding how they work and using them to our benefit, not by ignoring them.

The K.C is just another population we have set up. If it doesn't maximize its potential through understanding biological and natural laws that govern its success, its not USING self determination.

[moosmum]

The best breeders don't breed a dog because its pure, they breed it because its good.

It's not about "purity" - you've got that wrong.

It's about knowledge of ancestry and predicability of progeny. Pedigree breeders think the dog is better BECAUSE it has a pedigree.

And not every pedigree dog by the way.

If people want to breed to a code of conduct and lack knowledge, they can join, adhere to that code of conduct and gain it.

But I would never suggest that the ANKC is the font of all knowledge when it comes to dog breeding or that every ANKC breeder IS knowledgeable. Perhaps more knowledgeable than some others but that's it.

However you're asking the equivalent of a specialty car club to teach all car owners to drive. That's not what the ANKC is about.

That's why the State Departments of Primary Industry or their equivalents are now playing in this space. Commercial dog breeding is a relatively new venture and the DPIs are weighing in on it. The State CCs have enough of a battle getting states to differentiate between large scale profit breeders and their hobby breeders without taking on the load of the occasional crossbred breeders who do not financially contribute to their running.

It's ironic we're having this discussion on a forum dedicated to the promotion of purebred dogs and funded in part by their breeders. Look at the education of the general public that occurs here - including purebred dog breeders helping people that bought pups other sources.

How many times do we see breeders refusing use of commonly used publications or media because they don't approve of the company?

Can you give an example?

Can't remember the thread title now, but I started one asking if Dol members would support a publication dedicated to dogs of all stripes as a means to open education of the public to better understand pedigree dogs.. I think there may have been one yes? Other commented it was not suitable if the likes of Don Bourk (Sp?) were also free to use it. The thread died very fast through lack of support.

I think you need to re-read my post. I said its not about purity and tried to say its about quality.

Edited June 2, 2014 by moosmum

[moosmum]

The ANKC isn't suppressing crossbred breeding. It's suppressing its members from doing it. Membership is voluntary and given that ANKC bred pups represent 20% of those born every year, I don't see how its suppressing breeding?

Don't like the rules? Don't join. Not hard really. You won't get an ANKC pedigree for what you breed? Is that "suppression"?

To join the K.C or not IS my own choice.

I have seen the K.C members here lamenting more don't do so. They brush aside my reasons why instead of looking at them.

I won't get an ANKC pedigree for anything I might breed, but I have the choice to breed what suits MY needs and MY environment. Reliably.

If I join the K.Cs I loose that "luxury". I'm under immense pressure to breed what is currently in favor with the K.C environment. Not my own.

So I agree, its not hard.

Its not suppression that I don't get an ANKC pedigree.

It is suppression that my practices will be labelled inferior only because I don't have those papers.

I don't see the similarity to a specialist car club being asked to teach all car owners to drive. There is a single authority that grants a drivers license after you've shown you have learned the lessons. Drivers pretty much all grow up in an environment in which driving skills are taken for granted and are on demonstration every day. Thats not true of dog breeding.

Another point re; not taking this discussion too personaly, or laying blame for problems on the K.Cs. If I happen to be right, There will be many, many organizations here and around the world that have made the very same mistakes.

Edited June 2, 2014 by moosmum

[_PL_]

Powerlegs:

Moosmum I was wondering the same thing, really if the federal govt wipes the agreement with the ANKC then they have registered pedigrees on a platter. What is there to stop that happening?

The Federal Government doesn't have an agreement with the ANKC. There is no federal breed specific legisatiion beyond the placement of 4 breeds on the banned from import list.

Sorry, I guess people saying their pedigrees would never be affected made me think there was an agreement of sorts. Actually I'm sure I've read it here on Dol somewhere too, by what you're saying that is completely incorrect. I just never thought to ask because it's not my area. :)

[WreckitWhippet]

BSL is legislated by the individual states, the Feds the import restrictions.

You might see cross breeds added to the states BSL lists or more "types" of dogs but you aren't going to see any ANKC recognised breeds with ANKC papers targeted. Anyone with an ANKC registered dog with corresponding microchip has nothing to fear from BSL.

Stating " your breed could or will be next" is bullshit and scaremongering.

Don't buy a cross bred or a dog without ANKC papers and you won't have anything to be concerned about.

[melzawelza]

BSL is legislated by the individual states, the Feds the import restrictions.

You might see cross breeds added to the states BSL lists or more "types" of dogs but you aren't going to see any ANKC recognised breeds with ANKC papers targeted. Anyone with an ANKC registered dog with corresponding microchip has nothing to fear from BSL.

Stating " your breed could or will be next" is bullshit and scaremongering.

Don't buy a cross bred or a dog without ANKC papers and you won't have anything to be concerned about.

What is your reasoning behind being so adamant that no ANKC breed will ever be added? Seeing as every other country that has implemented BSL has had at least one kennel club registered breed included...

Edited June 3, 2014 by melzawelza

[moosmum]

BSL is legislated by the individual states, the Feds the import restrictions.

You might see cross breeds added to the states BSL lists or more "types" of dogs but you aren't going to see any ANKC recognised breeds with ANKC papers targeted. Anyone with an ANKC registered dog with corresponding microchip has nothing to fear from BSL.

Stating " your breed could or will be next" is bullshit and scaremongering.

Don't buy a cross bred or a dog without ANKC papers and you won't have anything to be concerned about.

This is a good example.

Domestic dogs survive in our communities as a single species. You can't divide them. They are interdependent. If you do divide them by artificial lines they can't be antagonistic to each other. If you destroy one half you destroy both. Damage one half and the other suffers equaly.

Domestic dogs and pedigree dogs are a single entity. They share their foundations.

You say get a pedigree and no worries. If you allow this on the basis that it won't affect you, you are wrong.

You just can't predict how.

I suspect people will become even more irresponsible. If we let people think a breed can be inherently dangerous, regardless of how its raised and trained, Why Shouldn't they believe breed is responsible for a lot more.

Any thing that takes handler responsibility. An "Its got nothing to do with me, I'm just the owner" mentality.

You encourage that by your inaction and complacency.

Unless you tell people otherwise, All they see is that every problem comes down to breed. Its the breed.

But you let that pass because it doesn't affect your world.

It does.

You share the same foundations.

You damage your foundations and undermine what you stand on. Not just some mysterious other half. Its all undermined.

Then I suppose we will complain again of how "they", the public should take responsibility and learn more. Start agitating for compulsory dog owners licenses.

And its already starting to get a bit too tedious to be bothered anymore. By By domestic dogs for a lot more people.

Fewer still to Join ANKC.

If you let your base be undermined, theres nothing to grow from.

Edited June 3, 2014 by moosmum

[Amax-1]

BSL is legislated by the individual states, the Feds the import restrictions.

You might see cross breeds added to the states BSL lists or more "types" of dogs but you aren't going to see any ANKC recognised breeds with ANKC papers targeted. Anyone with an ANKC registered dog with corresponding microchip has nothing to fear from BSL.

Stating " your breed could or will be next" is bullshit and scaremongering.

Don't buy a cross bred or a dog without ANKC papers and you won't have anything to be concerned about.

What is your reasoning behind being so adamant that no ANKC breed will ever be added? Seeing as every other country that has implemented BSL has had at least one kennel club registered breed included...

Because ANKC recognition implies breed eligibility for unrestricted keeping. Because of the amount of people owning the breed in sheer numbers enables the potential for a easily funded class action law suit to be initiated which the government would be unlikely to win as no ANKC recognised breeds have a breed standard defined as a threat to the community as a family pet. A handful of individual dogs non compliant with the breed standard won't shut down an entire breed to restrictions.

[melzawelza]

BSL is legislated by the individual states, the Feds the import restrictions.

You might see cross breeds added to the states BSL lists or more "types" of dogs but you aren't going to see any ANKC recognised breeds with ANKC papers targeted. Anyone with an ANKC registered dog with corresponding microchip has nothing to fear from BSL.

Stating " your breed could or will be next" is bullshit and scaremongering.

Don't buy a cross bred or a dog without ANKC papers and you won't have anything to be concerned about.

What is your reasoning behind being so adamant that no ANKC breed will ever be added? Seeing as every other country that has implemented BSL has had at least one kennel club registered breed included...

Because ANKC recognition implies breed eligibility for unrestricted keeping. Because of the amount of people owning the breed in sheer numbers enables the potential for a easily funded class action law suit to be initiated which the government would be unlikely to win as no ANKC recognised breeds have a breed standard defined as a threat to the community as a family pet. A handful of individual dogs non compliant with the breed standard won't shut down an entire breed to restrictions.

So how come it's happened everywhere else?

[moosmum]

BSL is legislated by the individual states, the Feds the import restrictions.

You might see cross breeds added to the states BSL lists or more "types" of dogs but you aren't going to see any ANKC recognised breeds with ANKC papers targeted. Anyone with an ANKC registered dog with corresponding microchip has nothing to fear from BSL.

Stating " your breed could or will be next" is bullshit and scaremongering.

Don't buy a cross bred or a dog without ANKC papers and you won't have anything to be concerned about.

What is your reasoning behind being so adamant that no ANKC breed will ever be added? Seeing as every other country that has implemented BSL has had at least one kennel club registered breed included...

Because ANKC recognition implies breed eligibility for unrestricted keeping. Because of the amount of people owning the breed in sheer numbers enables the potential for a easily funded class action law suit to be initiated which the government would be unlikely to win as no ANKC recognised breeds have a breed standard defined as a threat to the community as a family pet. A handful of individual dogs non compliant with the breed standard won't shut down an entire breed to restrictions.

It implies nothing. Registered breeders are subject to "most" of the same restrictions on keeping as the general public. BREEDERS face MORE restriction. Increasingly. Regardless if they are papered or not.

You are implying ANKC registration alone guarantees public safety, and safety for our dogs. It doesn't take much to show thats not the case.

When, not if, a certified pure breed makes the papers for an avoidable attack who are the public going to blame then? When you encourage unrealistic expectations based on a pedigree instead of people or their dogs?

Edited June 4, 2014 by moosmum

[_PL_]

Looking at the breeds restricted in other countries (which was an eye opener!) I still don't understand how ANKC papers give any kind of immunity. The pedigree breeders of those dogs probably fought tooth and nail to keep their breeds off the list but they are there all the same.

[melzawelza]

And if we really want to get technical, we've already got one ANKC registered breed subject to BSL - Greyhounds.

[WreckitWhippet]

And if we really want to get technical, we've already got one ANKC registered breed subject to BSL - Greyhounds.

It's not BSL and you know that.

[WreckitWhippet]

BSL is legislated by the individual states, the Feds the import restrictions.

You might see cross breeds added to the states BSL lists or more "types" of dogs but you aren't going to see any ANKC recognised breeds with ANKC papers targeted. Anyone with an ANKC registered dog with corresponding microchip has nothing to fear from BSL.

Stating " your breed could or will be next" is bullshit and scaremongering.

Don't buy a cross bred or a dog without ANKC papers and you won't have anything to be concerned about.

This is a good example.

Domestic dogs survive in our communities as a single species. You can't divide them. They are interdependent. If you do divide them by artificial lines they can't be antagonistic to each other. If you destroy one half you destroy both. Damage one half and the other suffers equaly.

Domestic dogs and pedigree dogs are a single entity. They share their foundations.

You say get a pedigree and no worries. If you allow this on the basis that it won't affect you, you are wrong.

You just can't predict how.

I suspect people will become even more irresponsible. If we let people think a breed can be inherently dangerous, regardless of how its raised and trained, Why Shouldn't they believe breed is responsible for a lot more.

Any thing that takes handler responsibility. An "Its got nothing to do with me, I'm just the owner" mentality.

You encourage that by your inaction and complacency.

Unless you tell people otherwise, All they see is that every problem comes down to breed. Its the breed.

But you let that pass because it doesn't affect your world.

It does.

You share the same foundations.

You damage your foundations and undermine what you stand on. Not just some mysterious other half. Its all undermined.

Then I suppose we will complain again of how "they", the public should take responsibility and learn more. Start agitating for compulsory dog owners licenses.

And its already starting to get a bit too tedious to be bothered anymore. By By domestic dogs for a lot more people.

Fewer still to Join ANKC.

If you let your base be undermined, theres nothing to grow from.

Pedigree dogs don't need non pedigree dogs to survive. There could be no cross breeds or dogs of unknown origin left in this country and we could still continue to breed pedigrees. Some of the primitive and Sighthound breeds accept the use of native stock or desert dogs when breeding and occasionally stud books are opened from time to time but when they are it's controlled and doesn't encompass a random mating with muttly nextdoor.

You won't see an ANKC breed added to BSL, not going to happen. I know it as do countless other owners of ANKC breeds with papers and corresponding chips. The only people that can't see it are those with generic brindle pound mutts, wannabe's without papers that owners refer to as Amstaffs and those who have come under council scrutiny.

For those of us with ANKC registered animals, we have nothing to fear, DogNSW negotiated our freedom a long time ago when we distanced ourselves from the sinking Pitbull ship.

[moosmum]

BSL is legislated by the individual states, the Feds the import restrictions.

You might see cross breeds added to the states BSL lists or more "types" of dogs but you aren't going to see any ANKC recognised breeds with ANKC papers targeted. Anyone with an ANKC registered dog with corresponding microchip has nothing to fear from BSL.

Stating " your breed could or will be next" is bullshit and scaremongering.

Don't buy a cross bred or a dog without ANKC papers and you won't have anything to be concerned about.

This is a good example.

Domestic dogs survive in our communities as a single species. You can't divide them. They are interdependent. If you do divide them by artificial lines they can't be antagonistic to each other. If you destroy one half you destroy both. Damage one half and the other suffers equaly.

Domestic dogs and pedigree dogs are a single entity. They share their foundations.

You say get a pedigree and no worries. If you allow this on the basis that it won't affect you, you are wrong.

You just can't predict how.

I suspect people will become even more irresponsible. If we let people think a breed can be inherently dangerous, regardless of how its raised and trained, Why Shouldn't they believe breed is responsible for a lot more.

Any thing that takes handler responsibility. An "Its got nothing to do with me, I'm just the owner" mentality.

You encourage that by your inaction and complacency.

Unless you tell people otherwise, All they see is that every problem comes down to breed. Its the breed.

But you let that pass because it doesn't affect your world.

It does.

You share the same foundations.

You damage your foundations and undermine what you stand on. Not just some mysterious other half. Its all undermined.

Then I suppose we will complain again of how "they", the public should take responsibility and learn more. Start agitating for compulsory dog owners licenses.

And its already starting to get a bit too tedious to be bothered anymore. By By domestic dogs for a lot more people.

Fewer still to Join ANKC.

If you let your base be undermined, theres nothing to grow from.

Pedigree dogs don't need non pedigree dogs to survive. There could be no cross breeds or dogs of unknown origin left in this country and we could still continue to breed pedigrees. Some of the primitive and Sighthound breeds accept the use of native stock or desert dogs when breeding and occasionally stud books are opened from time to time but when they are it's controlled and doesn't encompass a random mating with muttly nextdoor.

You won't see an ANKC breed added to BSL, not going to happen. I know it as do countless other owners of ANKC breeds with papers and corresponding chips. The only people that can't see it are those with generic brindle pound mutts, wannabe's without papers that owners refer to as Amstaffs and those who have come under council scrutiny.

For those of us with ANKC registered animals, we have nothing to fear, DogNSW negotiated our freedom a long time ago when we distanced ourselves from the sinking Pitbull ship.

Sorry W.W. but thats just not true.

As you distance yourself, you loose more of the base you stand on, and loose support yourself. K.C members don't just depend on K.C support. They depend on community support. Domestic dogs originated in the community of dog owners and lovers. Not in the K.Cs.

We would never have had pedigree dogs at all if we didn't have a diversity of people who valued dogs breeding or owning them for their own specific roles and purposes. That whole community of people was the foundation of pedigree dogs. It what grew them and supports them. Its their environment and it was accomplished with out the K.Cs.

If you are antagonistic to any part of that, and allow it to fade, die out etc. you loose a corresponding part of your own environment and support base.

By the time you eliminate every thing out side of the K.Cs so that all dogs are K.C registered pedigrees, You will be so far "distanced" from it, you are completely irrelevant to it (your environment). You won't be meeting that environments needs either.

You can't separate yourself from your environment, its not possible. All you can ever achieve that way is an endless cycle of trying to eliminate environmental influences. There is no separation of environment from what it holds.

Define a pedigree dog. What definitively separates it from a run of the mill domestic dog apart from a partialy recorded history?

Or you can allow for the FACT that people must be able to breed and own dogs suited to their own purposes, for their own environment and their own specific needs, or dogs are irrelevant. Theres no purpose to having them.

If and only if you allow for that can the K.Cs have a free flow of information to and from their environment to have a positive influence on it. And then they will because they won't stand just for a pedigree, they will stand for knowledge and improvement.

[Salukifan]

MM:

Define a pedigree dog. What definitively separates it from a run of the mill domestic dog apart from a partialy recorded history

The possession of a recorded history of ancestry going back at least 5 generations, and usually a hell of a lot more. Not "partially recorded", fully recorded. What sets these dogs apart is a documented histrory of breeding true to a type specified by the breed creators and documented in the breed standard.

I'm sorry MM I just don't get what you're trying to say about dogs and their "envrionment". You either want a dog that's going to be far more predictable in its adult characteristics and far more likely to be within a specified set of characteristics that you want, or you don't. If you don't then there are plenty of dogs around who will fit the bill and plenty of breeders supplying them. Why those who care about pedigrees have to take responsibility for the actions or knowledge of those that don't sure beats me.

I dont' see how "environment" influences that.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[moosmum]

BSL is legislated by the individual states, the Feds the import restrictions.

You might see cross breeds added to the states BSL lists or more "types" of dogs but you aren't going to see any ANKC recognised breeds with ANKC papers targeted. Anyone with an ANKC registered dog with corresponding microchip has nothing to fear from BSL.

Stating " your breed could or will be next" is bullshit and scaremongering.

Don't buy a cross bred or a dog without ANKC papers and you won't have anything to be concerned about.

This is a good example.

Domestic dogs survive in our communities as a single species. You can't divide them. They are interdependent. If you do divide them by artificial lines they can't be antagonistic to each other. If you destroy one half you destroy both. Damage one half and the other suffers equaly.

Domestic dogs and pedigree dogs are a single entity. They share their foundations.

You say get a pedigree and no worries. If you allow this on the basis that it won't affect you, you are wrong.

You just can't predict how.

I suspect people will become even more irresponsible. If we let people think a breed can be inherently dangerous, regardless of how its raised and trained, Why Shouldn't they believe breed is responsible for a lot more.

Any thing that takes handler responsibility. An "Its got nothing to do with me, I'm just the owner" mentality.

You encourage that by your inaction and complacency.

Unless you tell people otherwise, All they see is that every problem comes down to breed. Its the breed.

But you let that pass because it doesn't affect your world.

It does.

You share the same foundations.

You damage your foundations and undermine what you stand on. Not just some mysterious other half. Its all undermined.

Then I suppose we will complain again of how "they", the public should take responsibility and learn more. Start agitating for compulsory dog owners licenses.

And its already starting to get a bit too tedious to be bothered anymore. By By domestic dogs for a lot more people.

Fewer still to Join ANKC.

If you let your base be undermined, theres nothing to grow from.

Pedigree dogs don't need non pedigree dogs to survive. There could be no cross breeds or dogs of unknown origin left in this country and we could still continue to breed pedigrees. Some of the primitive and Sighthound breeds accept the use of native stock or desert dogs when breeding and occasionally stud books are opened from time to time but when they are it's controlled and doesn't encompass a random mating with muttly nextdoor.

You won't see an ANKC breed added to BSL, not going to happen. I know it as do countless other owners of ANKC breeds with papers and corresponding chips. The only people that can't see it are those with generic brindle pound mutts, wannabe's without papers that owners refer to as Amstaffs and those who have come under council scrutiny.

For those of us with ANKC registered animals, we have nothing to fear, DogNSW negotiated our freedom a long time ago when we distanced ourselves from the sinking Pitbull ship.

Sorry W.W. but thats just not true.

As you distance yourself, you loose more of the base you stand on, and loose support yourself. K.C members don't just depend on K.C support. They depend on community support. Domestic dogs originated in the community of dog owners and lovers. Not in the K.Cs.

We would never have had pedigree dogs at all if we didn't have a diversity of people who valued dogs breeding or owning them for their own specific roles and purposes. That whole community of people was the foundation of pedigree dogs. It what grew them and supports them. Its their environment and it was accomplished with out the K.Cs.

If you are antagonistic to any part of that, and allow it to fade, die out etc. you loose a corresponding part of your own environment and support base.

By the time you eliminate every thing out side of the K.Cs so that all dogs are K.C registered pedigrees, You will be so far "distanced" from it, you are completely irrelevant to it (your environment). You won't be meeting that environments needs either.

You can't separate yourself from your environment, its not possible. All you can ever achieve that way is an endless cycle of trying to eliminate environmental influences. There is no separation of environment from what it holds.

Define a pedigree dog. What definitively separates it from a run of the mill domestic dog apart from a partialy recorded history?

Or you can allow for the FACT that people must be able to breed and own dogs suited to their own purposes, for their own environment and their own specific needs, or dogs are irrelevant. Theres no purpose to having them.

If and only if you allow for that can the K.Cs have a free flow of information to and from their environment. To have a positive influence on it. Not by separating themselves.

And then they will because they won't stand just for a pedigree, they will stand for knowledge and improvement. And all of a sudden, they REPRESENT their environment. We get better dogs and environment (community) through the K.Cs because they represent knowledge and improvement.

Purity alone does not represent the environments needs. Good dogs do.

[Salukifan]

Sorry W.W. but thats just not true.

As you distance yourself, you loose more of the base you stand on, and loose support yourself. K.C members don't just depend on K.C support. They depend on community support. Domestic dogs originated in the community of dog owners and lovers. Not in the K.Cs.

We would never have had pedigree dogs at all if we didn't have a diversity of people who valued dogs breeding or owning them for their own specific roles and purposes. That whole community of people was the foundation of pedigree dogs. It what grew them and supports them. Its their environment and it was accomplished with out the K.Cs.

If you are antagonistic to any part of that, and allow it to fade, die out etc. you loose a corresponding part of your own environment and support base.

By the time you eliminate every thing out side of the K.Cs so that all dogs are K.C registered pedigrees, You will be so far "distanced" from it, you are completely irrelevant to it (your environment). You won't be meeting that environments needs either.

You can't separate yourself from your environment, its not possible. All you can ever achieve that way is an endless cycle of trying to eliminate environmental influences. There is no separation of environment from what it holds.

Define a pedigree dog. What definitively separates it from a run of the mill domestic dog apart from a partialy recorded history?

Or you can allow for the FACT that people must be able to breed and own dogs suited to their own purposes, for their own environment and their own specific needs, or dogs are irrelevant. Theres no purpose to having them.

If and only if you allow for that can the K.Cs have a free flow of information to and from their environment. To have a positive influence on it. Not by separating themselves.

And then they will because they won't stand just for a pedigree, they will stand for knowledge and improvement. And all of a sudden, they REPRESENT their environment. We get better dogs and environment (community) through the K.Cs because they represent knowledge and improvement.

Purity alone does not represent the environments needs. Good dogs do.

How about defining what you mean by "environment". If you mean the wider Australian dog owning community in which only half of dogs are registered or vaccinated and 80% of litters aren't ANKC registered and many dogs receive no formal training, well and good. I'm happy to distance myself from dog owners who fail to meet their legal responsibilities as owners or to provide appropriate veterinary health care or training for their dogs and I make absolutey no apology for that whatsoever. Amazingly, these tend to be the very same owners whose dogs harm people and dogs in the community. Yep, happy to distance myself from the ignorant and the irresponsible because in this day and age there is no excuse for that. KCs don't need to fill that knowledge gap - plenty of knowledge providers out there now.

Second time you have used the "purity" word and I've already dealt with that. Substiture "predicability" because that's what purebred dogs represent. When the overwhelming reason people surrenders dogs is that they failed to live up to their owner's expectations, you'd think that predictability would be what the "environment" needs. Oh well.

There is no way in hell that all the dogs in the world (or indeed Australia) will ever be pedigreed. As I have previously advised, only 20% of pups whelped in Australia are ANKC registered.

You keep talking about the ANKC "distancing itself". HOW? What would you see the KC's do that they don't do now? And why should an organisation funded by members do anything for people who are not only NOT members but have no obligation or interest in abiding by the code of ethics that members are required to adhere to? ANKC affiliate clubs already train any member of the community that wants it. KC's represent the interests of their members first and foremost. Their members are largely interested in pedigreed dogs and dog sports. Who else would would you see them represent and WHO is going to pay for that?

And more importanly, what has any of this got to do with BSL? What more than a public policy stating that the ANKC is opposed to it would you have the ANKC do?

Edited June 5, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[melzawelza]

And if we really want to get technical, we've already got one ANKC registered breed subject to BSL - Greyhounds.

It's not BSL and you know that.

What are you talking about?? Of course it is.

BSL stands for Breed Specific Legislation.

Requiring Greyhounds - a specific breed - to be muzzled in public unless exempted is legislation that is breed specific. It is Breed Specific Legislation. How could it possibly not be?!

ETA: and I'm pretty sure we are one of the only countries that has such laws for Greys.

Edited June 5, 2014 by melzawelza