Training Styles

[EmiLeigh]

I remember once reading on this forum about a few dog owners who trained their dogs to NOT play with other dogs when out and about as a way to keep them in line all the time. So they do not run off and not respond to commands because they are over excited etc.

Does anyone know what this style of training is called and where I can get more information on it?

Furthermore

What training styles do you use?

[huski]

Hi EmiLeigh

You might find this article helpful;

http://k9pro.com.au/services/socialisation-what-is-it-exactly/

We don't train dogs not to play with other dogs to keep them in line, we raise pups to have a neutral or low positive value for other dogs. That is, they are raised to see other dogs are not particularly interesting or something of a high value.

This means you have a dog that never buys into other dogs as a distraction. Other dogs are never a distraction or something you have to compete with to get your dogs attention.

[Vickie]

My 5 dogs run in a pack at home and regularly run with other dogs that i know,, sometimes in large groups.

I would say they do have value for other dogs and have fun with other dogs, but they each have more value for doing something with me.

I know dogs who have been raised not to run with other dogs & who now can never run with other dogs.

I also know dogs who have been raised to run with other dogs who have very little value for their handler in the presence of other dogs.

I think it all comes down to how much knowledge & experience you have as a trainer and what is practical & preferable for your lifestyle.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Vickie

[Kavik]

I agree with Vickie and I also think it depends on the temperament of the individual dog.

Kaos was never really that interested in other dogs, even as a pup. There is the odd dog he wants to visit (mostly other Kelpies), but on the whole he is not interested. He can, however, be a bit uptight around other dogs in close proximity and doesn't like dogs who get in his face. He is fine at training and in a trial environment where it is more controlled but I don't trust him to run loose with other dogs unless I know the other dogs well.

Diesel likes to visit other dogs, but I didn't know a lot about building value for me when I got him, so I have a harder time keeping his attention around other dogs.

Nitro so far is very good around other dogs, he can be a bit full on, but he doesn't jump all over them, lies down to greet puppies, and doesn't mind them jumping on his head. He is also getting much better at being calm around them if I don't want them to meet, and at bringing his attention back to me, which I attribute to my increased knowledge in building a better relationship with my dog.

[EmiLeigh]

Very interesting! Thank you so much for your replies! I had never heard of this before when I socialised my cocker spaniel 12 years ago. She was useless at listening to us when other dogs were around so this time around I want to do things differently.

It does seem a little sad that dogs are incapable to play with other dogs at all...it would be interesting to know how to find a balance. I guess, as some have said, it depends on the dog.

Does anyone know of any trainers/obedience schools who use this technique in SA?

[huski]

I think it's important to remember that it's not about NOT socialising your dog. When raising pups they can be exposed to many other dogs and as adults, have no problem running with other dogs at all, but they don't have a high value for other dogs nor are they particularly interested in playing with them.

We have three young working line dogs here who can all run together without any trouble at all, IMO one reason for this is that they don't have much value for one another and don't see any need to compete with each other or behave like a pack.

Socialisation is about exposing your puppy to new experiences and assigning them a value, if your puppy has a negative reaction to other dogs, then more appropriate socialisation would be needed to lift their value of other dogs to a slightly higher positive value.

It is extremely common for people to think socialisation means letting their pups play with other dogs a lot, but it is also extremely common for this to lead to problems where the pup develops more value for other dogs than it has for the owner and the rewards they have to offer. This isn't simple to undo and would be a common cause of lots of training and behaviour problems.

ETA: This is a video that might help explain it :)

And another one;

Edited May 28, 2014 by huski

[ness]

Its a two edged sword really if you let your puppy socialise with other dogs then you are also risking a negative experience. Its not possible to control every last variable and ensure only positive experiences. It can take but one bad experience to have a huge lasting experience.

My dogs hang out together but don't really play either with each other or with other dogs. I do let my youngster play with select dogs on occasion because she has had quite a negative association with having dogs attack her but she would honestly rather work or do something with me then play.

[huski]

Its a two edged sword really if you let your puppy socialise with other dogs then you are also risking a negative experience. Its not possible to control every last variable and ensure only positive experiences. It can take but one bad experience to have a huge lasting experience.

I think there is risk in everything we do, but if you control socialisation and expose pups to known dogs you know are appropriate I think the risk is extremely minimal.

[Vickie]

I also think it depends on the temperament of the individual dog.

Agreed! My 6 month old pup seemed to come out of the box with qualities that I've had to achieve via training & obedience in some of my other dogs. He quite happily followed me around off lead the first time he went to a sheep trial, despite other dogs wandering around everywhere. He will happily lay down beside me & calmly watch other dogs work, despite being already started & keen on sheep himself. He will play with other dogs, but if I leave the area, he will go & sit at the gate, waiting for me to come back. I Haven't done anything special with him (he's supposed to be my husbands dog, lol). I think it's just the way he is.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Vickie

[DeltaCharlie]

As others have said, I think a lot of it depends on the individual dogs. We have 11 dogs so for the most part they learn from an early age that other dogs are fun, but they are simply everywhere and it is much more special to be getting attention from Mum :) It varies from dog to dog though, and for us has been very dependent on the value for "working with Mum" that we have managed to instil in them. Some of them have so much value for playing with us, that they are completely oblivious to any other dog's existence as soon as there is a hint of work to be done (term used loosely, could mean a game of fetch, swim in the dam, tricks training, or formal agility/flyball/sheep work). For some of them that is just their natural preference for whatever reason. Eg Link and Rush have such a high work ethic that nothing else exists, Charlie loves a toy so much that nothing else exists, and Delta just finds other dogs boring and why would she want to go and be with them? Others we have had to build the value for us so that it becomes so much higher than the value they have for distractions (other dogs etc)

I wish I had looked at neutralising Whip around other dogs more when he was younger. He was very full-on as a pup and as a result didn't spend as much time "simply existing" with the entire pack as he annoyed the crap out of the older ones and Charlie taught him to shoulder charge so he became an injury risk at full speed until he could learn to control his body and find the brakes. The result- other dogs were a novelty to him and Mum was a constant, their value rose to be equal with me and I was constantly battling to keep his attention around the distraction of other dogs. It took a long time for him to be able to work off lead in the presence of other dogs, and he didn't hit the agility ring until the age of 2 when he had matured a little and could concentrate on the task at hand. He is nearly 4 and I have only just started to run him in pairs for agility as until recently I didn't have the confidence in him to not suddenly want to run after the other dog. His first run was with a golden retriever that he trains with and had never shown any interest in, the second run was with another border collie and I was petrified for most of the run that he would want to chase Tyce. Right at the end of the run Tyce actually came and gave him a kiss while Whip was waiting on the end of a contact, Whip didn't take his eyes off me in anticipation of his release to keep going. I couldn't have been prouder of him in that moment but it took a long time to get there. Future pups have been raised differently and taught that "other dogs are boring" right from the start. They still get to play and hoon around during their "downtime" but when it is time to work or Mum has asked you to do something then the expectation is that all other dogs cease to exist in your mind.

I believe that breed plays a part too. Some breeds are naturally more social and you will need to work harder at lowering the value of other dogs with them than you would with other breeds.

It also depends on what you want to achieve with your dog. Are you looking to dog sports where they need to focus on you and ignore the presence of other dogs, or are you simply after a dog that you can take to the beach who will be accepting of Joe Public who comes along with his equally social dog and everyone has fun in the sand. Dog 1 would require a high value for you and the job at hand with little to know value for other dogs, Dog 2 would simply require you (or the food/toy in your hand) to be a higher value than the other dogs so you have a reliable recall and an acceptable degree of control over them in a social setting. Both situations would be an issue, however, if the value for you (and your bribery) was much lower than that of the other dogs. Unless of course, your dog never leaves the house or goes anywhere that an off lead recall is required. Everyone's situation is different.

[sheena]

My two dogs run & play with each other, but I only allow them to run with other dogs that they know & that I know will tolerate each other. However, my girl is only interested in rounding them all up & ALWAYS has to have something in her mouth & if I let her go on too long, because she is holding something in her mouth, she starts to get dehydrated & froths at the mouth, becoming quite distressed. Being a border collie, she doesn't know when enough is enough. If ever she gets to run with strange dogs, I suffer the next time I run her in agility & it takes her training in LAT back a step, as she is very motion reactive, which I keep under control with LAT & other fun focus games. The young guy is not very interested in running with other dogs & he doesn't like other dogs running up to him & getting into his space. So in a nutshell, I can't see the benefit in letting them run wild with other dogs, whether they know them or not. They get plenty of socialisation without running around wild with other dogs. :)

[Kavik]

Its a two edged sword really if you let your puppy socialise with other dogs then you are also risking a negative experience. Its not possible to control every last variable and ensure only positive experiences. It can take but one bad experience to have a huge lasting experience.

My dogs hang out together but don't really play either with each other or with other dogs. I do let my youngster play with select dogs on occasion because she has had quite a negative association with having dogs attack her but she would honestly rather work or do something with me then play.

I do my best to minimise the risk by only allowing them to greet either known adult dogs, or puppies who are interested and friendly. I keep an eye on the interaction and if it starts to get too boisterous (or if one dog gets uncomfortable) we call our dogs and work on our sit in proximity to other dogs until they calm down a bit. Puppies are kept on lead for this reason except when visiting friends whose dogs I trust to be good with appropriate behaviour around puppies.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

about a few dog owners who trained their dogs to NOT play with other dogs when out and about as a way to keep them in line all the time.

It's not really about "keeping the dog in line all the time".

It's about managing your training environment and preventing your dog learning that it's ok to ignore you.

Doesn't have to be other dogs to play with - it could be chasing birds at the park or playing in the waves at the beach or chasing joggers...

Any time the dog is having fun without you - you have to manage that or they stop paying attention to what you want.

So you have to start where you have control over the training environment so you can stop a dog from ignoring you and set it up for success on task - like recall.

Start somewhere small and confined like the bathroom or laundry. When the dog understands the task in that environment, start changing the environment.

Expecting a puppy to come when called in a highly rewarding environment like the park - without lots of training in a controlled environment is like taking a parrot out of the wild and then releasing it in an open forest and expecting it to come when called. Erm not likely. And yet it is possible to train the parrot (or the puppy) to come - no matter what - but you start in a space you have control over.

And then you can let your puppy go play with other dogs.

You are taking a risk - if you don't know these other dogs - or even if you do - that your puppy can get hurt or injured if one dog gets grumpy or zigs when your dog zags and they prang. Which is why some people don't let their dogs play with dogs they don't know. They don't want to take that risk.

[aussielover]

Agree with Vickie- it's more about developing the pups desire to work with you than about restricting access to other dogs. Of course common sense should be exercised- don't let them interact with unknown dogs without checking with the owner if it is ok.

Of course a lot also depends on temperament, desire to work with you and food/toy drive. I have a labrador, a breed renowned for love of play with other dogs but from a young age she's always been much more interested in food or her ball so I never experienced any difficulty in calling her away from other dogs. Unfortunately she now rarely plays with other dogs, would rather her ball (and definitely prefers food to anything!!!!) so it is a double edged sword. She pretty much only (rarely) plays with other labs that she knows and only if there's nothing else to do.

[The Spotted Devil]

My Dally's 2 favourite things in the world are pi$$ing on trees and flirting with bitches - puppies, adults, oldies, desexed or entire lol. So he only gets to do those things if he does some work for me first, plays tug or plays food games. So I transferred the value of his A-list rewards to his B- and C-list if that makes sense. To the point where he will happily come training with me when Em is in season.

My field-bred Springer, on the other hand, has zero interest in other dogs (apart from Zig) - that's definitely genetic. BUT she is obsessed with fur and feather so she doesn't get to retrieve either unless she is doing it under controlled conditions. I learnt early on that letting this particular dog chase fur and feather freely would be a huge mistake. It's like her ears fall off lol.

My dogs enjoy playing together but would pick training with me any day.

[alpha bet]

We operate a training school that specialises in creating social play - off lead - with multiple dogs in the class. We then incorporate exercises for the dogs to distract from the play and back to the human - this builds a working attitude to their human. We have been operating this way for nearly 18 years and work with average families and their pets. We have become more and more committed to this style of training and it has proved highly success for many different people.

We have also had some who are now going off and starting to become interested in competition so can join clubs to learn the official format for Rally, Obedience, Flyball and Agility. When these dogs attend the competition clubs the instructors have moved them up from the starter grades in the first week or two to the higher levels where they can immediately start the comp training. This is purely because the dogs are happy to work for their people around other dogs.

Often trainers believe you have to build a strong obedience and avoid creating an interest in other dogs. However we operate the opposite - For the first few weeks the dogs are highly distracted due to the novelty but then the dogs start to look for more things to join in. Most of the class is held off lead and the human is the one who has to learn to adapt.

Breeds we have worked with beagles, poodle mixes, rotties, aussie sheps, labs, kelpies, retrievers.... just about anything really.... even a few maremma

18 months ago went to Europe and visited different clubs and breeders - was fascinated when i discovered a school who worked very much in the same format.... called The Mirror Method in Hungary..... I spent a full day with a couple of the instructors who had quite good english.... was terrific to see this done on a huge scale, they have 9 clubs throughout Hungary and one of the founders has now moved to Texas to start a school.

This style of training is certainly very different to the traditional.... and we have learnt just to adapt as things go along....

If anyone knows others who work this way I would love to have their contacts.

So to the Original Poster - look for many alternatives and take what works for you......

Edited May 28, 2014 by alpha bet

[Amax-1]

I remember once reading on this forum about a few dog owners who trained their dogs to NOT play with other dogs when out and about as a way to keep them in line all the time. So they do not run off and not respond to commands because they are over excited etc.

Does anyone know what this style of training is called and where I can get more information on it?

Furthermore

What training styles do you use?

It depends on the individual dog as the more aloof a dog is and the higher the drive, the easier they focus on the handler through distractions and retain obedience with the same foundation training.

[perfect partners]

We operate a training school that specialises in creating social play - off lead - with multiple dogs in the class. We then incorporate exercises for the dogs to distract from the play and back to the human - this builds a working attitude to their human. We have been operating this way for nearly 18 years and work with average families and their pets. We have become more and more committed to this style of training and it has proved highly success for many different people.

We have also had some who are now going off and starting to become interested in competition so can join clubs to learn the official format for Rally, Obedience, Flyball and Agility. When these dogs attend the competition clubs the instructors have moved them up from the starter grades in the first week or two to the higher levels where they can immediately start the comp training. This is purely because the dogs are happy to work for their people around other dogs.

Often trainers believe you have to build a strong obedience and avoid creating an interest in other dogs. However we operate the opposite - For the first few weeks the dogs are highly distracted due to the novelty but then the dogs start to look for more things to join in. Most of the class is held off lead and the human is the one who has to learn to adapt.

Breeds we have worked with beagles, poodle mixes, rotties, aussie sheps, labs, kelpies, retrievers.... just about anything really.... even a few maremma

18 months ago went to Europe and visited different clubs and breeders - was fascinated when i discovered a school who worked very much in the same format.... called The Mirror Method in Hungary..... I spent a full day with a couple of the instructors who had quite good english.... was terrific to see this done on a huge scale, they have 9 clubs throughout Hungary and one of the founders has now moved to Texas to start a school.

This style of training is certainly very different to the traditional.... and we have learnt just to adapt as things go along....

If anyone knows others who work this way I would love to have their contacts.

So to the Original Poster - look for many alternatives and take what works for you......

This sounds like it would be a much better idea for pet dogs than most standard obedience classes. What sort of exercises do you use to bring the dogs away from the other dogs and get them to focus on their handlers?

[Amax-1]

What sort of exercises do you use to bring the dogs away from the other dogs and get them to focus on their handlers?

Good question? If a dog has already established a high value for other dogs, the dog needs to genetically be highly driven for food or toy rewards to transition easily from dog to handler focus. It's the reason in working and sporting applications certain breeds and bloodlines are chosen with the greatest genetic likelihood to be adaptable for work/sport required of it. Foundation training from a puppy to create high handler value and focus is the easiest way to achieve strong focus and obedience in the adult dog.

[alpha bet]

To answer that question is not easy online as really you have to see how it works to really understand : However we have many dogs in our Adult Classes who start out with very poor focus on their handlers - but given the opportunity to mix off lead and relax with other dogs then they become interested in the activities. Amazing how quickly new dogs start to try new things when they have the chance to watch, they often want to copy the other dogs.... Also handlers have to learn to try different approaches to get the dogs attention, this is sometimes frustrating but, once the handlers get some success then they are usually very eager to try more.

One thing we find helpful is that we set up a small obsticle course (mainly with jumps and ramps) as people start moving around the arena the dogs follow and then the handler can begin directing their dog over jumps - dogs love this activity and once you start adding a few treats amazing how quickly dogs start to look to their people for the next thing.

Another thing we focus on is some quick easy tricks - 30 seconds is all you need - reward and then be prepared to let the dog wander off again - when he wanders back then another quick trick. The objective is to build from 30 sec focus and then double it and double it and double it - before you know you have a dog who can focus on a 3 minute stay.... IN A GROUP and OFF LEAD.

Consider the Photo from my previous post - Dog's Stay on the table - the two dogs on the left are dogs who were rescued at about 18 months old and both of these dogs had high distraction but are now highly focused on working. One is an aussie the other is a bordercollieXhuskie. The aussie sitting on the stool was a 3yo dog who had a severe dog aggression problem when she was re-homed 6 months ago she is now much more pleasant around other dogs.

Dogs don't need to be genetically driven for food.... Focus is something dogs and humans can learn to improve but for many it is about finding how to make learning more fun. People and Dogs who enjoy their time together enjoy learning together. Creating foundation training from a pup is of course great but it can also backfire if done incorrectly which is very common when we see even on DOL the number of people who have problems with normal behaviour such as DA, not coming when called etc. - Many dogs get bored with constantly drilling exercises and it is common to see dog aggression problems develop because the handlers try to restrict a dog from any social contact. This is even the case with some experienced obedience handlers.

Often 'traditional' ideas of what should work - stand in the way of people trying something different.....