Registration Papers

[persephone]

You are doing well!

May I suggest another bit of homework .

G**gle the prefix of your chosen breeder..and see what comes up :) often you will find photos of their dogs, or sometimes good things the dogs have done at shows ..or sometimes other bits & pieces to do with their kennel etc ...

[The Ark]

Well done for doing all the right things here. Please also follow up with the pug club and Dogs Vic though to see if this person is actually a member of that organisation - if not, then there is nothing that can be done, but if it is a member doing the wrong thing then she needs to be booted out for the sake of all reputable breeders and their dogs.

[The Ark]

It sounds more like she's probably just a lowlife backyarder trying to cash in on the reputation of registered breeders though.

[Dame Aussie]

yeh, Im very shaken by that experience and her snap at me. I will definitely get the list of reg breeders from VCA/ANKC.

i guess in a way Im grayeful it happened to me, so I can learn. And all the replies have given me great information.

Exactly, that's the way to look at it :)

[Dame Aussie]

Good on you for checking further and still ask all your questions particularly the health ones from all the breeders you contact.

And just for others reading - not all breeders that advertise on gumtree or trading post are shonky. If the good guys don't advertise where the bad guys do then people will never have a chance to get a good quality dog.

This is true too. Our Aussies breeder advertised on the trading post and they were great.

[FalconRange]

So people can register with councils and as a breeding business aka BYBs?

Not quite. People register their dogs with their local council to say that they do indeed have a dog at that address. In SA, at least, all dogs are meant to be registered with their council, whether they are pedigreed or crosses, desexed or not, show, pet or otherwise.

Backyard Breeders then often advertise their sire and dams as 'Registered' dogs. This simply means that their dogs are registered with the local council (as every dog in the state should be), but nothing more.

This may be as a result of ignorance - seeing ANKC registered breeders advertising their dogs as 'Registered', and labeling their BYB dogs as 'Registered' as well in an effort to compete while not knowing the difference.

It could also be a deliberate attempt to convince unknowing public puppy buyers to purchase their pups, believing that they are somehow more desirable or better quality pups than those from BYBs who don't advertise as such, or from ANKC breeders as well.

Either way, it's always best to ask questions first like you did, and find a responsible ANKC breeder who health tests and breeds for temperament. Better to get a pup from a good breeder than from an ignorant or misleading one!

[Mystiqview]

Some councils also require breeder permits in order to breed cats and dogs. Brisbane City council and Moreton Bay regional council are toe that require breeder permits. In Brisbane to get a breeder permit, you need to have an ANKC prefix. Moreton used to be the same, however they now allow unregistered ANKC breeders to obtain council breeding permits. This is on top of council registration for each animal.

There are also pet industry groups such as PIAA - these look after pet stores and their supply chains. A person/"breeder" can pay membership to them.

None of these have any standing with ANKC membership and kennel prefix.

A breeder can sell a puppy on limit registration/not for breeding or a lovely pet home. Even on limit registration there is nothing stopping the person from breeding with the animal, short of the breeder desexing the pup prior to sale. Limit registration papers are still pedigree papers. The limit just prevents an ANKC sanctioned breeding program (and showing). But to the BYB they are still pedigree papers proving pedigree. They can quite legitimately advertise from "pedigree parents" and list XYZ champion bloodlines as this will be on the papers.

The first thing if a person is seeking a pedigree dog from sites such as gumtree/trading post is to ask those who claim they are "registered" is to ask if they are registered with WHOM. if they are dodgy on their answer, then buyer beware. If honey give you a prefix name, you can also ring the state controlling body and ask if the prefix is current (or not under a suspension) and if you know the name of the seller, confirm the name against the prefix. Contacting a state breed club could also advise if the prefix is legitimate.

As for the pet owner and pedigree papers. If you look down the track to compete in any ANKC dog sports such as obedience, herding, flyball. Dancing with dogs, rally o etc, the pedigree papers allows you to compete as a pedigree dog rather than sporting class or associate register. In addition, if a new genetic issue is found (hope this never happens), a track of lineage if genetic may be helpful to find out if your dog may be at risk.

For the most part, pedigree papers will not have a large bearing on pet owners. Depending on which state you are from, they are not largely expensive. Some states have different fees for main or limit register, however in QLD our papers cost about $40 for either main or limit.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Can people go around saying they are registered breeders when they are not? Are there any laws against that? If not, is there anything we can do about this?

Feels like fraud to me. The trouble is - as some have said - "registered" for pedigree (not purebred) with DogsVIC and ANKC is not the same as "registered with local council to breed dogs".

This lady was misleading to suggest that papers were a hassle - pedigree papers - in her case - impossible.

So theoretically you could report her to council and consumer affairs for misleading advertising (depending what she wrote in the ad you found her with), or misleading conduct - suggesting the puppies were "eligible" for (ANKC pedigree) papers but weren't going to have them).

Make it clear you were looking for a pedigree/purebred dog from a breeder who follows the ANKC / Dogs Vic code of ethics and this person misled you saying papers were not important.

Note some breeders - especially of cross breeds - will print their own "papers". Which mean nothing and have no legal standing at the moment.

[Wundahoo]

If this person has advertised on Gumtree as a registered breeder and has asked more than $500 for the puppy then Gumtree will take action to remove the adverts and caution the advertiser. Of course they need to have this brought to their attention so you will have to report the advert to them.

At least Gumtree have a set of advertising rules pertaining to the age at which pups may be sold and require those who claim to be registered breeders to state the association with which they are registered.

It's unfortunate that there are still so many shonky people around who will try to decieve others into thinking that they are legitimate but you have done well to ask questions and not to be taken in by her talk.

I hope that you find a wonderful pup that will give you all the fun and love that you deserve.

[VizslaMomma]

If this person has advertised on Gumtree as a registered breeder and has asked more than $500 for the puppy then Gumtree will take action to remove the adverts and caution the advertiser. Of course they need to have this brought to their attention so you will have to report the advert to them.

At least Gumtree have a set of advertising rules pertaining to the age at which pups may be sold and require those who claim to be registered breeders to state the association with which they are registered.

It's unfortunate that there are still so many shonky people around who will try to decieve others into thinking that they are legitimate but you have done well to ask questions and not to be taken in by her talk.

I hope that you find a wonderful pup that will give you all the fun and love that you deserve.

I looked at the Trading Post after reading this thread. There were no words 'registered breeder' in the ads. However, there was more than one ad for pugs all with the same contact number but different suburbs.

Edited May 17, 2014 by VizslaMomma

[Mystiqview]

Can people go around saying they are registered breeders when they are not? Are there any laws against that? If not, is there anything we can do about this?

Note some breeders - especially of cross breeds - will print their own "papers". Which mean nothing and have no legal standing at the moment.

There are groups of the designer mongrels who have started their own "group" to which they say they are registered with XYZ association.

Also to note: There are also some legitimate dog groups around (Working sheepdog of Australia) that are not recognised by the ANKC, but are legitimate registries.

To advertise they have "papers" is not necessarily fraud. The parents may have ANKC papers. The "breeder" gives you a copy of the parent's papers. That is supplying you with papers of the parents. The breeder is registered with the local council - they are registered. (just not with ANKC).

Depends on how the ad is written and what the person tells others in correspondence. If they were asked if they belonged to Dogs Victoria and they led the buyer to believe they were when not - then yes there is potentially a case. If the buyer does not ask questions and only presumes - there lies the danger.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

If they were asked if they belonged to Dogs Victoria and they led the buyer to believe they were when not

This is what many buyers think they are getting when they ask for a dog with "papers". They want a dog that they could put in a dog show if they wanted and call purebred/pedigree and be confident about that. They want a dog that reflects the characteristics of its breed - otherwise they might as well rescue a mutt puppy from a shelter.

But the ads say "registered" when they mean with Council, and papers when they mean stuff they printed themselves or vaccination papers or even the microchip papers. I've actually had that conversation with dog owners - what papers? oh - vaccination and microchip... yes but you can't show the dog and you'd have to get it desexed to enter most dog sport competitions like obedience and agility etc.

I've even had people who wanted a "Show dog" be fooled by "council registration". They think a "show dog" is something they can get at the local pet shop puppy supply or off gumtree/trading post.

It's all very well to say "papers" and "registered" don't mean members of dogs vic or some other breeder association (eg working dogs) with records of each dog's ancestry and performance but that's not now the general public read it.

[Jed]

It used to be common having a choice between papered and non papered I think before limited register evolved where non papered pups were cheaper. If the breeders are over 50 odd years old, they may be a bit old school perhaps, or the sire or dam maybe on limited reg and they can't register the litter anyway telling you some BS to justify it?

Where was this?

Could happen in WA. Not all pups registered. Rules have now been changed, all pups must be registered.

Not in Qld. All pups must be registered ; this has been the rule for decades.

Not sure about other states; think it is so in Vic and NSW

OP - run as fast as you can. Without registration, the pup could be anything, and if the breeder wont register, they are dodgy. And report them to the VCA

Well done for going elsewhere

Edited May 19, 2014 by Jed

[Steve]

NSW 35 years ago we didn't have to give papers out - that only came in when limited register was instigated.

Just because everyone who is involved in ANKC registered dogs thinks the term registered without qualification of who they are registered with is the go that doesn't make it so.

People buying puppies need to ask who are you registered with and those advertising need to qualify who they are registered with because reality is you could be registered with numerous orgs.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Steve

[Wundahoo]

It used to be common having a choice between papered and non papered I think before limited register evolved where non papered pups were cheaper. If the breeders are over 50 odd years old, they may be a bit old school perhaps, or the sire or dam maybe on limited reg and they can't register the litter anyway telling you some BS to justify it?

Where was this?

Could happen in WA. Not all pups registered. Rules have now been changed, all pups must be registered.

Not in Qld. All pups must be registered ; this has been the rule for decades.

Not sure about other states; think it is so in Vic and NSW

OP - run as fast as you can. Without registration, the pup could be anything, and if the breeder wont register, they are dodgy. And report them to the VCA

Well done for going elsewhere

It's been a requirement in W.A. for quite a few years that all litters and all pups in a litter must be registered, however it isnt required that registration papers are signed over to new owners. Regulations require that the purchaser's receipt must indicate whether or not the pup is sold with or without papers and if sold "with papers" must state Main or Limit.

Many breeders here use this as a tool to weed out BYB's who are looking to breed from a Limit registered puppy sold as a pet. I use a number of things including the retaining of any pedigree and breeding information until such time as I receive a certified copy of the sterilisation certificate that includes the dog's microchip number. Potential purchasers are told prior to purchase and agree to this in writing at the time of purchase.

In whichever state the OP's problem has happened it really doesnt sound at all like a cautious breeder trying to sus out a potential BYB and sounds very much like a BYB that is trying to pretend that they are legit.

You are right to run far away and very fast !!

[Mystiqview]

If they were asked if they belonged to Dogs Victoria and they led the buyer to believe they were when not

This is what many buyers think they are getting when they ask for a dog with "papers". They want a dog that they could put in a dog show if they wanted and call purebred/pedigree and be confident about that. They want a dog that reflects the characteristics of its breed - otherwise they might as well rescue a mutt puppy from a shelter.

But the ads say "registered" when they mean with Council, and papers when they mean stuff they printed themselves or vaccination papers or even the microchip papers. I've actually had that conversation with dog owners - what papers? oh - vaccination and microchip... yes but you can't show the dog and you'd have to get it desexed to enter most dog sport competitions like obedience and agility etc.

I've even had people who wanted a "Show dog" be fooled by "council registration". They think a "show dog" is something they can get at the local pet shop puppy supply or off gumtree/trading post.

It's all very well to say "papers" and "registered" don't mean members of dogs vic or some other breeder association (eg working dogs) with records of each dog's ancestry and performance but that's not now the general public read it.

I know. Have seen this pop up time and again. I have even been asked as a breeder to supply my credentials to an interstate puppy buyer. Happy to do so. I have also prosecuted BYB for violating council bylaws.

The problem is - they may not technically be lying and it may not be fraud legally. Morally/ethically - completely another argument.

They ARE "registered" - just because they are only registered with council and not DogsXXX does not mean they are not lying. And just because they say it comes with "papers" does not also mean technically lying either. If the dog comes with a puppy pack, a copy of the parents parental history and a vaccination/microchip paper - is still "papers". Get a good lawyer and the seller could get off.

See the same her in Qld with "Registered" and "papers" all the time on Gumtree etc. Some here thankfully clarify "registered" to mean registered with local council and papers to include vaccs etc. Others who advertise registered clarify and state they are members of Dogs Qld and specify what papers the pups come with (limit/main registration).

I know registered breeders who have advertised litters on DOL, gumtree etc where the pups were either were not being registered (possibly prohibited mating) or were not able to be registered because the dogs bred were of another breed they have not belonging to the ANKC registry.

It is always buyer beware.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

It is always buyer beware

yes and no.

helps if buyer knows their consumer rights and are clear about what they expect or understand by "registered" and "purebred" etc.

Straight up if they think they're buying a show dog and they tell the seller that - then the seller sells them a puppy with no ANKC papers - that seller is commiting fraud.

It's not really about whether they're "technically" telling the truth - it's about what "any reasonable member of the public" would understand by their ad.

Which of course is a joy for lawyers, but the enforcement of "Australian consumer law" is starting to be applied to puppy vendors. Especially pet shops. But to some extent - anyone who puts an ad in writing on gumtree or the trading post or email - could also be subject to it.

This is the WA take on it.

http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/consumerprotection/PDF/Publications/A_consumers_guide_to_buying_a_pet.pdf

[vanillan]

I was also wondering what papers really mean.

If you are on someones waiting list, and you go pickup the puppy to bring it home, what papers are included exactly?

Please revise/add to this list: (Im referring to papers from ANKC registered breeders)

-Registration (limited/main) with ANKC/state body eg VCA

-Registration with council (so is this separate from the above?)

-Transfer of ownership papers-all signed and ready to be sent

-Vet history: vaccinations, checkup history, health issues etc

-Microchipping information (number, names, dates, addresses, phone number on microchip)

-Possibly informatin on parents and breed (usually optional, right?)

Im not sure if the first three are one and same or separate paper. Is someone able to clarify?

[Rebanne]

I was also wondering what papers really mean.

If you are on someones waiting list, and you go pickup the puppy to bring it home, what papers are included exactly?

Please revise/add to this list: (Im referring to papers from ANKC registered breeders)

-Registration (limited/main) with ANKC/state body eg VCA

-Registration with council (so is this separate from the above?)

-Transfer of ownership papers-all signed and ready to be sent

-Vet history: vaccinations, checkup history, health issues etc

-Microchipping information (number, names, dates, addresses, phone number on microchip)

-Possibly informatin on parents and breed (usually optional, right?)

Im not sure if the first three are one and same or separate paper. Is someone able to clarify?

registration with council is for the new owners to attend to

depending on when the ANKC breeder registers the pups , those papers may or may not be ready at 8 weeks. I usually don't microchip until 8 weeks. I can't register the pups without microchip numbers, pups often go home at 8 weeks. Papers won't be ready. The registration papers you get with a pup are also your transfer of ownership, the details are on the back.

yes to getting a vaccination card and yes to getting any info if pup has needed anything other then vaccination. Vets check the pups out when giving vaccinations but I've never had one give a written report.

I give copies of any health tests I've done

microchip form, if back, is given to new owner to swap into their name, otherwise sent with rego papers.

my next litter is getting done at 4 weeks so all paperwork should be back and ready to hand over when pups are ready to go to their new homes.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Rebanne

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

The following three - are associated with ANKC / VCA / Dogs Vic rego, should come together. Not sure if that would be exactly the same as when you take the puppy home as some breeders are a bit slow to send in their paperwork and some dog orgs are a bit slow to process them. But you should be able to get a copy of one or both parent dog's paper work maybe - like a photocopy so if your puppy's papers don't come when the breeder said - you can follow up.

-Registration (limited/main) with ANKC/state body eg VCA

-Possibly informatin on parents and breed (usually optional, right?)

-Transfer of ownership papers-all signed and ready to be sent

Council rego - the registration as an animal breeder business with council - hasn't got anything to do with (individual) dog rego with council - most councils give you a little bit of lead time to get your puppy registered, between two weeks and 3 months depending on where you live.

-Registration with council (so is this separate from the above?)

Hopefully the breeder can provide you with a vet certificate that shows when the puppy has been vaccinated, something on when it was wormed (tho mostly don't need the vet to do this), and when the next treatments are due and what to use.

-Vet history: vaccinations, checkup history, health issues etc

shouldn't be any health issues.

This one - you want the microchip info to be in your name or a transfer into your name to be signed off by the breeder. I don't know how this works since the breeders are supposed to microchip before they rehome - but whose name do they put the microchip details into. I tried to get my dog registered with more than one database (ie the one my vet uses as well as the one the AWL uses) but couldn't do that because the website link was broken on the day I was at the vet and you have to get the vet to certify the microchip you're registering is in the dog. Frustrating much.

-Microchipping information (number, names, dates, addresses, phone number on microchip)

I suspect the new owner has to ensure the microchip details are their details - usually at the vet's office is a good place to do this, because I've heard of some puppies where the new owners never did this and the (lost and found) dog ended up back with the breeder.