Registration Papers

[vanillan]

I am about to buy a pug puppy from a registered breeder but they state that they wont provide/get registration papers for the puppy, or transfer papers to us, as its "too much of a hassle" to transfer the title of the puppy, so they are not going to have papers. Is this normal? They said they will provide the lineage of the parents, which is great but shouldnt we receive info on the pup as well? How important are the papers to pet owners, not using the pup for show/competition or breeding?

The microchipping will be under our details and our choice of the dog name, so at least the puppy is ours in the microchip.

Are we able to register the pup ourselves as long as we get the breeder to sign? Or can we register without the breeders signature?

[Staff'n'Toller]

If they are in fact a registered breeder they must register all pups in the litter in Victoria and provide you with 'Main' or 'Limited' certificate of pedigree for your pup.

This litter is obviously an accident (outside of the code of ethics), or they do not want to pay to register the litter, or they are not registered breeders at all, with Dogs Victoria.

You cannot get pedigree papers for a litter that has not been registered after the fact.

I would not buy the puppy, they are giving you vague excuses that are not acceptable.

What health testing is needed for Pugs? I would be worried they haven't done this either.

[OSoSwift]

Agree with above.

It really isn't that much hassle to register pups or once registered transfer them to their new owners.

I also would be wanting to know what health testing has been done on the parents

[RiverStar-Aura]

When I hear these types of stories -- ie the parents are from champion bloodlines but the pups will come without papers -- I can't help but think that the parents were sold as 'not for breeding' but bred from anyway. It must be such a horrible feeling for ethical breeders to think that they've done the right thing in by listing the dog as 'not for breeding' only to have owners go behind their backs and breed anyway.

I'd run a mile from this 'breeder' as there seem to be too many red flags. Regarding the importance of the papers for a pet owner, it's not really about the paper itself; it has more to do with the health of the pup, and knowing that the puppy you're buying is THE BEST for your family.

[dancinbcs]

Registration papers are the only guarantee that you get a purebred puppy. Without papers it could be any sort of cross and they can be hard to tell apart as puppies. You have no comeback if your "Pug" then grows to be 40cm tall and an obvious crossbred. As already mentioned it is a condition of being a registered breeder that all puppies must be registered and the buyers provided with papers. There is no acceptable excuse for not doing it. Find another breeder as this one sounds very dodgy.

[Kirislin]

Dodgy Keep looking.

[Allerzeit]

Either not an ANKC registered breeder, or not an ethical breeder - or both! Definitely one to steer clear of.

[Boronia]

If I were a registered breeder I would be so proud to register my pups. I would also be happy to include what health checks and free-of-inherited problems paperwork. It would be my proof that I have bred a good line that I can pass on to a buyer. The seller of these dogs is not a breeders boot-lace. Run away

[~Anne~]

I would not be buying the puppy if I was looking specifically for a purebred pug puppy.

There are many breeders out there doing the right thing. Take your business to one who shows they have some ethics.

The fact that you have come here asking questions shows that it concerns you. Follow your gut instincts and find another breeder.

[The Ark]

I would go further and ring Dogs Victoria to check on the registration status of the breeder. If they are indeed registered then I'd forward copies of all correspondence to Dogs Vic as proof of the breach of their code of ethics. The only way we are going to stamp out dodgy registered breeders is to report each and every case and demand that our canine councils do the right thing and get rid of them.

If they are not registered breeders but are claiming to be registered with Dogs Vic then I would still forward the information to Dogs Vic as I think it's time for the canine councils to start taking that type of misrepresentation of their "brand" very seriously.

Find another breeder - but do SOMETHING about this one too.

[Austerra]

Hope this may help answer your concerns.

From Dogs Victoria website:

4.4 TRANSFERS OF OWNERSHIP

Regulations - Part 4 - Page 9

4.4.1 An application for the transfer of ownership of a registered dog shall be made on the reverse of the

Certificate of the dog’s Registration. For dogs sold within Australia, the new owner is responsible for

the lodgement of the application for transfer of registration.

4.4.2 An application for transfer of ownership of a dog may be considered by the Management Committee if

the signature of the Registered Owner cannot be obtained. In such circumstances the person seeking to

transfer the dog must submit a statutory declaration evidencing the facts. Management Committee may

approve or disallow the transfer depending on the facts and Management Committee may impose

conditions on the transfer as it may deem necessary.

4.4.3 Any transaction which changes the registered status or ownership of a dog will only be effected upon

receipt of the dog's Registration Certificate. Where such Registration Certificate has been lost or

destroyed a duplicate may be extracted subject to receipt of a statutory declaration and fee.

4.4.4 Except as provided for in these Regulations any member selling, supplying or disposing of a dog to

(15/11/11) another person must supply to that person the signed registration certificate duly completed with the

name and address of the person and the transfer date, within one calendar month of disposal unless

Management Committee otherwise directs. A member shall not include any contractual provisions

contrary to this regulation.

4.4.5 Any member who sells a registered dog without transfer of registration to the purchaser must obtain the

agreement of the purchaser in writing that the dog will either not be transferred into the name of the

purchaser or deregistered with the VCA.

4.4.6 A member shall not sell any dog which is not registered, nor use in connection with the sale or disposal

of a dog, VCA, registration forms and/or documents in such a manner as to cause the purchaser to

believe the dog being sold is registered with the VCA.

[Austerra]

Also this:

20.1.22 A member shall register all puppies bred by that member that are living at the date of registration. Such

(15/11/11) registration must include all puppies from the litter on the one litter registration application form and,

subject to regulations, must be applied for within eighteen (18) months of the date of whelping.

20.1.23 A member shall provide to all recipients of dogs sold or otherwise disposed of by that member, written

details of:

20.1.23.1 The breed characteristics;

20.1.23.2 Vaccination record and / or requirements;

20.1.23.3 Responsible dog ownership information; and

20.1.23.4 All documentation required by the Victorian Canine Association Inc.

[persephone]

Any member who sells a registered dog without transfer of registration to the purchaser must obtain the

agreement of the purchaser in writing that the dog will either not be transferred into the name of the

purchaser or deregistered with the VCA.

the bit I've bolded looks scary ..does it mean what I think? That if registration papers are not properly provided .. the breeder /seller retains ownership?

[Starkehre]

Not certain pers, but how I read it was... if the breeder wants to dog kept in their name, then they need written permission from the buyer to do so, otherwise the dog could be deregistered. I took it meaning that if the buyer/breeder wished to enter into a contract with the breeder retaining the dog's registration in their name, that is OK as long as the buyer agrees in writing.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Starkehre

[Airedaler]

I agree with what The Ark has said (#10). It is too easy for Canine Control Registered breeders to get away with not doing the right thing. Most puppies are sold as pets and hence strictly speaking the papers are of little consequence to the owner. In fact breeders still get enquiries about buying a puppy but don't want papers so it should be cheaper!

Hello, apart from the $30 something to register it costs the same to raise a pet as any other puppy.

There are plenty of pet owners who are quite happy to support these "registered" breeders which in fact, in many cases are breeding bitches every season and selectively registering them with the canine association. In a lot of cases they do not have good the knowledge of the breed or the breed history. Often, probably usually, the purchasers end up with a wonderful puppy and are happy to recommend the "breeder" to others and so the culture is perpetuated. I know of a breeder that has had 5 litters (including one cross bred) from a bitch that has not yet turned 6. She must have been bred every season. Obviously the puppies are helping to provide a nice income.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Airedaler

[persephone]

whichever - I certainly would not be giving them my money Too many ifs & maybes for me who doesn't know much about the legalities...

Vanillan - did you pay a deposit?

If you possibly can - ask on here for a reputable and honest breeder of good quality pugs , and look there.

[Dame Aussie]

No, not normal, I suggest finding another breeder.

[Salukifan]

You can't blame pet dog buyers, many of whom think "papers" are only for "show dogs" if they get taken for a ride by a registered breeder looking to cut costs.

It's a breach of CC regulations in most states not to register all pups in a litter and if I had an email from a breeder who's supposed to be doing it offering pups without papers, it would be in the In Box of the Canine Control pronto.

Shonks will do what they think they can get away with. Stop letting them get away with it and certainly do NOT line their wallets by buying pups from them.

[Steve]

who are they registered with?

[Amax-1]

It used to be common having a choice between papered and non papered I think before limited register evolved where non papered pups were cheaper. If the breeders are over 50 odd years old, they may be a bit old school perhaps, or the sire or dam maybe on limited reg and they can't register the litter anyway telling you some BS to justify it?