Breeding For "performance", Not Show

[JRT Lover]

I am interested in whether there is such a thing as a breeder who breeds based on the success of their pet dog/s at agility, obedience etc, rather than on show performances. So if I was to buy a puppy for a pet (on limited register), but the dog grew up to be amazing at agility etc, would it be considered acceptable or unacceptable to breed from the dog to aim to pass on this ability? I understand that you should be a registered breeder to breed, but do you have to breed based only on show performance? And what if the dog is on limited register because the intention was never to show it?

I'm from a horse breeding background where performance is pretty strongly heritable and it's considered normal and desirable to breed with well performed animals, regardless of registrations (though the horse breeding world is considerably less restrictive than the dog breeding world).

Interested to hear your thoughts...

[VizslaMomma]

Vizslas that I know which had agility & obedience titles also had their show titles.

:)

[Salukifan]

I am interested in whether there is such a thing as a breeder who breeds based on the success of their pet dog/s at agility, obedience etc, rather than on show performances. So if I was to buy a puppy for a pet (on limited register), but the dog grew up to be amazing at agility etc, would it be considered acceptable or unacceptable to breed from the dog to aim to pass on this ability? I understand that you should be a registered breeder to breed, but do you have to breed based only on show performance? And what if the dog is on limited register because the intention was never to show it?

I'm from a horse breeding background where performance is pretty strongly heritable and it's considered normal and desirable to breed with well performed animals, regardless of registrations (though the horse breeding world is considerably less restrictive than the dog breeding world).

Interested to hear your thoughts...

Yes. There are quite a few in a range of breeds.

[Rebanne]

Good conformation is what makes a good athlete who will stay the distance. And no you should not breed a limited registered dog.

[kelpiecuddles]

As others have said, the standards are fit for purpose standards so in theory a dog that is bred to standard should excel at the job it was designed for. Of course there are still vriations and fashions within a lot of breeds so within the standard means different things to different people.

[huski]

I agree a dog needs to be structurally sound to be fit for purpose but I don't believe a show title is necessary before breeding and it's not something I look for when looking for a pup myself.

Structural soundness is very important but the dog also needs to have the right temperament, drive etc to be a good working dog.

Edited May 1, 2014 by huski

[Dame Aussie]

I agree a dog needs to be structurally sound to be fit for purpose but I don't believe a show title is necessary before breeding and it's not something I look for when looking for a pup myself.

Structural soundness is very important but the dog also needs to have the right temperament, drive etc to be a good working dog.

I'm not a breeder but I agree with this.

[Remarkabull]

I agree a dog needs to be structurally sound to be fit for purpose but I don't believe a show title is necessary before breeding and it's not something I look for when looking for a pup myself.

Structural soundness is very important but the dog also needs to have the right temperament, drive etc to be a good working dog.

I'm not a breeder but I agree with this.

I agree with this too.

If I were looking for a dog for working/sports performance then a show title wouldn't matter at all to me.

[Salukifan]

Good conformation is what makes a good athlete who will stay the distance. And no you should not breed a limited registered dog.

Conformation and temperament. Breeding a limited register dog would see you in breach of the ANKC rules, not to mention profoundly disappointing the dog's breeder.

If you want a performance dog, buy one from a performance breeder. They are out there. Even in JRTs.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[The Spotted Devil]

I agree that good conformation is essential for a top performance dog. And you shouldn't be breeding on the Limited Register. Then there's the added complexity of the skill of the handler/trainer.

But if we talk about the genetic potential of temperament (see the other thread re Nature vs Nurture) we need to consider the genetic potential of working ability. My dogs do pretty well at agility and obedience but the talent my field bred ESS pulls out of her pretty little head in retrieving trials simply blows my mind - you just can't teach some of it. She's not bred for the show ring quite obviously - less coat and feathering, shorter ears, slightly longer than tall (rather than square) - and I'm sure show ESS are considered much more beautiful by many. She struggles to trot when outside the house - either runs flat out or sleeps. But her ability lies in the way she tackles terrain (blackberry is a piece of cake!), her focus to work with me and her desire to retrieve fur and feather that will see her swim 150m through icy water in the middle of winter.

[idigadog]

Our dogs are bred for workability not for the show ring. Each one of them races in harness and only those who have the best attributes are used for breeding. They are all on the main register and we have been registered breeders for close to 18 years now.

Four of our boys have been used at stud by other breeders and only one of those breeders show. The others, like us, work and race their dogs and only breed when they need to add to their teams.

We still do all of the routine tests, sometimes more on our dogs and abide by the same code of ethics as every other breeder. I guess the difference is that our style of dog is not what would be expected in the show ring but that's not to say we couldn't show them if we wanted to. It's just that running them and racing is way more fun for us :)

[huski]

I agree that good conformation is essential for a top performance dog. And you shouldn't be breeding on the Limited Register. Then there's the added complexity of the skill of the handler/trainer.

But if we talk about the genetic potential of temperament (see the other thread re Nature vs Nurture) we need to consider the genetic potential of working ability. My dogs do pretty well at agility and obedience but the talent my field bred ESS pulls out of her pretty little head in retrieving trials simply blows my mind - you just can't teach some of it. She's not bred for the show ring quite obviously - less coat and feathering, shorter ears, slightly longer than tall (rather than square) - and I'm sure show ESS are considered much more beautiful by many. She struggles to trot when outside the house - either runs flat out or sleeps. But her ability lies in the way she tackles terrain (blackberry is a piece of cake!), her focus to work with me and her desire to retrieve fur and feather that will see her swim 150m through icy water in the middle of winter.

Great example TSD!

[JRT Lover]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm pleased to hear that there are people out there who do breed for performance. I understand that structural soundness is part and parcel of good performance - I'm a horse breeder! The funny thing is that many dog breeds (and horse breeds) have gone down the path of not being structurally sound as the show ring tends towards extremes, so performance animals are not necessarily what would win in the show ring.

So if I wanted to find a JRT puppy for agility, on the main register so I could breed with her if she was good enough and I wanted to become a breeder down the track, could I get such a thing or are all puppies registered on the limited register unless I express an interest in a show puppy on the main register? Can you register a puppy on the main register if it's not really a show puppy and your intentions are not to show it?

I am a newbie to all this dog registration stuff, just considering my options with regard to my choice of puppy this time around. I've had JRTs before, but not papered in any way.

[Salukifan]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm pleased to hear that there are people out there who do breed for performance. I understand that structural soundness is part and parcel of good performance - I'm a horse breeder! The funny thing is that many dog breeds (and horse breeds) have gone down the path of not being structurally sound as the show ring tends towards extremes, so performance animals are not necessarily what would win in the show ring.

So if I wanted to find a JRT puppy for agility, on the main register so I could breed with her if she was good enough and I wanted to become a breeder down the track, could I get such a thing or are all puppies registered on the limited register unless I express an interest in a show puppy on the main register? Can you register a puppy on the main register if it's not really a show puppy and your intentions are not to show it?

I am a newbie to all this dog registration stuff, just considering my options with regard to my choice of puppy this time around. I've had JRTs before, but not papered in any way.

It's up to the dog's breeder to decide which register the pups go on. I can't see too many breeders selling a bitch on Main Register to a first time (for them) puppy buyer but you never know.

[idigadog]

As I said above, all of our dogs are on the main register and none of them are shown. It's totally up to the breeder as to what register they put them on and that is something you would have to negotiate with them prior to purchasing a puppy.

[huski]

Some breeders will give you the pup on limited then once it matures and they are happy with how it's developed, and if it's in a performance/working home what you've done/achieved with it, they will change it to main papers to give you the ability to breed

Do your research and speak to lots of breeders, watch the dogs they've bred work or compete and choose a breeder who you have a good rapport with and whose dogs you really like.

Edited May 1, 2014 by huski

[sandgrubber]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm pleased to hear that there are people out there who do breed for performance. I understand that structural soundness is part and parcel of good performance - I'm a horse breeder! The funny thing is that many dog breeds (and horse breeds) have gone down the path of not being structurally sound as the show ring tends towards extremes, so performance animals are not necessarily what would win in the show ring.

So if I wanted to find a JRT puppy for agility, on the main register so I could breed with her if she was good enough and I wanted to become a breeder down the track, could I get such a thing or are all puppies registered on the limited register unless I express an interest in a show puppy on the main register? Can you register a puppy on the main register if it's not really a show puppy and your intentions are not to show it?

I am a newbie to all this dog registration stuff, just considering my options with regard to my choice of puppy this time around. I've had JRTs before, but not papered in any way.

I'd say your first priority would be a breeder who values performance more than showing. If you find such a breeder, and you demonstrate the dog can perform, you shouldn't have trouble getting to Main register with a dog selected for performance and breeding for performance.

Shows are not necessarily a good way to determine sound conformation. In some breeds, shows select for exaggerated features that interfere with athleticism . . . or even health.

With Labradors (my breed), particularly in the US, the show and field lines have quite different looks (some show dogs do well in field trials, but dogs bred for field have no hope in a confirmation show). German shepherds are even more extreme in split between working and field lines. The working line people don't much care about conformation show results. I don't know the Australian scene for terriers. If you were in the US I'd suggest looking for a rat terrier or feist . . . . those crowds tend to be more keen on hunting and agility than showing.

Edited May 1, 2014 by sandgrubber

[OSoSwift]

Another option to look at is getting a puppy who is a good specimen to show and good enough for dog sports, they do exist. Who knows the breeder may show for you, and you get to do the bit you like.

Personally I want a dog who has it all and can do it all. A dog that is sound enough to do dog sports is sound enough for the showring and vica-versa.

Personally in my breed there are some trends that I do not want in my dogs as I do not believe put under the pressures or racing, chasing or dogs sports they would not stay sound. That is not to say what I do want, is not what a good show dog should possess. I do understand that a dog that is a great sports dog may not possess the finer points that make it a best in show winner.

My last dog - different breed - was a BIS winner, a Champion who also had obedience and temperament titles as well as an endurance title. She was then the 42nd dog in her breed, in Australia to become a Register of Merit(ROM). A good dog should be able to do it all. This is always my aim.

My dogs I own now are handicapped by a young family, a 7 day a week business and distance. They still have passes or titles in obedience, dog sports and endurance along with either points or other class or group awards in the showring. If I lived closer to where a vast majority of where shows and trials as held then they would have more. As it is to try and gain my dogs next two passes towards his next obedience title we will have to 750kms one way. The point is they can do it all, they may not be BIS winners, they may not ever become OB or AG Champions, however I believe they may, should they not be handler handicapped and lived closer.

[espinay2]

There are breeders who breed for both working ability and also show. There are some breeds where there is a 'polarisation' of the two but even in those breeds you will find people that do both. There are also some where there is much less distinction between the two. Also note that breeding for agility/obedience is in many cases different to breeding for a breeds natural 'working ability' and may involve selecting from different traits to what the breed was originally intended. So be clear about what it is exactly that you want the dog to do. In my breed for instance, breeding for the obedience ring etc would involve selecting traits which are totally different from the breeds intended purpose and would actually be unwanted in that respect.

Edited May 1, 2014 by espinay2

[LisaCC]

I'm not sure what it's like in terriers, but in a lot of breeds with a working/show split, working lines have a different temperament and sometimes a very different look.

So make sure you like those aspects of the working lines too. If not so much maybe look for breeders who's dogs have dual titles in sports and conformation.