Training A Dog That Is Too Treat Focused ?

[BC Crazy]

Ha ha ness LOL....

I think training will be a peice of cake ness when I can get handle on Stella's thinking & speed.

[Simply Grand]

Ah, ok, I'd say then the association isn't yet strong enough for her. Could be worth giving a clicker a go, or a new marker word depending on how much she's heard 'yes'. Ideally you want the marker really well conditioned so their head automatically snaps to look at you when they hear it BEFORE you start using it to actually mark behaviours, otherwise it dilutes the meaning of the marker.

So for introducing the clicker/marker word would be a case of "click, shove treat in mouth" lots and lots of times no matter what she's doing or where she's looking. Don't show her the treats like a lure/bait, just have a bunch hidden in your hand ready to pop into her mouth. Once you've done lots of reps (depends on the dog how many, could be 10, could be 50) pause and wait til she looks away from you, give the marker with no treats in sight and see if she looks back at you - quickly, as in head whips around to look at your face like "where's the treat?". If she isn't there yet, rinse and repeat, may take several short sessions over a day or two.

Don't use the marker at all until she gets to that point. Once she's got that you can start to fade out the lure by initially luring her with the treat she can see in one hand, giving the marker then giving her the actual reward treat from the bag behind you with the other hand so she gets used to the treat not actually coming from the hand she's watching then the next step is no food in the lure hand, use hand signal and word cues instead etc etc.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Simply Grand

[OSoSwift]

I like the clicker as it is very precise, non-emotional and fast - especially for those fast dogs who can have given you what you want and be onto the third thing by the time you ahve give a verbal marker and a treat. You need to teach her over time and very small increments to extend the time she does something ie a sit stay. if you get whay you want - bang click/treat. not to two seconds later unless you are training a stay or stationary exercise and then you need to work up to that 2 seconds.

Have a food/toy obsessed dog is brilliant :) I created a ball obsession. Best reward I ever had for training weavers.

Oh adn if anyone fed my dog at training without getting a specific okay, I would take their head off their shoulders!

Edited May 1, 2014 by OSoSwift

[BC Crazy]

I have tried a clicker with her I will say she thrived but I seemed to be fumbling around with not enough hands or something as it was the first time I have tried them . Might do some practise with it without Stella around & see how I manage it.

I would be fuming too if anyone was sneaking treats to my dog as well. I always say no nicely if they ask as I'm very strict with what I actually use for treats. All mine are home cooked . Stella weight has to be monitored now due to the meds she is on. I make her work for everything. She doesn't get rewarded for looking pretty. She has mastered that look by the way ;)

Edited May 1, 2014 by BC Crazy

[Aidan3]

My Labrador was expelled from group obedience training when she learned with 100% accuracy that bumbags have food in them... and people will share it!

I ended up going with praise and/or toys for her basic obedience training (had to be done by myself) instead.

Took her back to the group training 2 years later... and she STILL knows with 100% accuracy that bumbags have food in them... but I could redirect her much better with the praise and toys by then. I roused on anyone trying to sneak her food from their bumbags, but apparently the ONLY way to train a dog is with food rewards... *sigh*

We don't go to obedience any more...

T.

Doggy Zen, look it up. I'm just stunned that this is even the slightest issue in a class that uses food, let alone that you were expelled!

Don't instructors learn the most basic things any more?

[Aidan3]

Three things that should be at the top of your mind when training:

1. Timing

2. Criteria

3. Rate of Reinforcement

The issues here are 1 and 2. Criteria is deciding what you are trying to get more of, so that you can reinforce it. You need to break everything down into tiny little pieces. E.g if your dog can't sit for more than 1 second without breaking to try to get the food, then click at 1 second (or before). Make it very clear that sitting is what will be rewarded. When she can do this 4/5 times, try 1.5 seconds. When she can do this 4/5 times, try two seconds. If she fails more than 1/5 trials, make it easier for her.

Also, work your way through the Zen exercises here: http://sue-eh.ca/page24/page26/page10/

[Kavik]

Aunty Nekhbet :laugh: you can make me a video if you like :laugh:

I thought by slowing Stella down, just like every video I've ever watched of dog's doing obedience sitting there like miss 'perfect', waiting for direction, that Stella may learn to do the same....Well, maybe not... :p

So I'd better get some skates on then you advise & make me much more interesting & FAST. I will change direction etc like you suggest. It is funny cause she does look at me a lot of her own accord. So much so it is almost unnerving at times. I often ask her what she needs or wants she does it so much. Until I produce FOOD & ask her to do something. Then it's , show me the FOOD !!!!

I have always used UH,UH if she stuff's up. I never get cranky at her or let on I'm disheartened. I'm really soft with both my guys. Always have been with any dog I've owned. She wouldn't know what a raised voice was.

Kavik, I tried the "It's Yer Choice" with her tonight. She caught on immediately. I had the treat clinched in my hand, she nudged it once, then laid straight down & turned her head away casually :)

Thanks guys, keep those ideas coming. Very interested. Sometimes you can't seem to see a solution clearly when you are trying so darn hard to get things right.

With Its Yer Choice you don't want them to lie down and turn their head away, you are not teaching food refusal, you are teaching focus. You want the dog to be looking at the food and keen but not to take the food until you either hand it to them or release them. If you watch the dog in the video, it is on the edge of its seat to get the food, focused on the food, not turning its head away or trying to avoid looking at the food.

[tdierikx]

My Labrador was expelled from group obedience training when she learned with 100% accuracy that bumbags have food in them... and people will share it!

I ended up going with praise and/or toys for her basic obedience training (had to be done by myself) instead.

Took her back to the group training 2 years later... and she STILL knows with 100% accuracy that bumbags have food in them... but I could redirect her much better with the praise and toys by then. I roused on anyone trying to sneak her food from their bumbags, but apparently the ONLY way to train a dog is with food rewards... *sigh*

We don't go to obedience any more...

T.

Doggy Zen, look it up. I'm just stunned that this is even the slightest issue in a class that uses food, let alone that you were expelled!

Don't instructors learn the most basic things any more?

One of the instructors was the worst offender!

Considering that I turned up with my Labrador wearing a check chain and advised that she was NOT to be fed treats... I think they were determined to prove me wrong about my own dog.

Funnily enough, one of my other dogs would completely refuse treats at training - she was more interested in just getting the job done so we could go home and she could drape herself on the couch again... lol!

T.

[BC Crazy]

Aunty Nekhbet :laugh: you can make me a video if you like :laugh:

I thought by slowing Stella down, just like every video I've ever watched of dog's doing obedience sitting there like miss 'perfect', waiting for direction, that Stella may learn to do the same....Well, maybe not... :p

So I'd better get some skates on then you advise & make me much more interesting & FAST. I will change direction etc like you suggest. It is funny cause she does look at me a lot of her own accord. So much so it is almost unnerving at times. I often ask her what she needs or wants she does it so much. Until I produce FOOD & ask her to do something. Then it's , show me the FOOD !!!!

I have always used UH,UH if she stuff's up. I never get cranky at her or let on I'm disheartened. I'm really soft with both my guys. Always have been with any dog I've owned. She wouldn't know what a raised voice was.

Kavik, I tried the "It's Yer Choice" with her tonight. She caught on immediately. I had the treat clinched in my hand, she nudged it once, then laid straight down & turned her head away casually :)

Thanks guys, keep those ideas coming. Very interested. Sometimes you can't seem to see a solution clearly when you are trying so darn hard to get things right.

With Its Yer Choice you don't want them to lie down and turn their head away, you are not teaching food refusal, you are teaching focus. You want the dog to be looking at the food and keen but not to take the food until you either hand it to them or release them. If you watch the dog in the video, it is on the edge of its seat to get the food, focused on the food, not turning its head away or trying to avoid looking at the food.

Oh Stella is more like she is refusing the bait Kavik.She turns her head away. One thing I don't want to do is dampen any drive she has that's for sure. I don't want to bore her with training either. I'll rewatch that video today.

[BC Crazy]

Aidan, thanks for the interesting link. Will read with interest. Totally agree with the criteria/timing. I have issues with both I think

[Kavik]

Aunty Nekhbet :laugh: you can make me a video if you like :laugh:

I thought by slowing Stella down, just like every video I've ever watched of dog's doing obedience sitting there like miss 'perfect', waiting for direction, that Stella may learn to do the same....Well, maybe not... :p

So I'd better get some skates on then you advise & make me much more interesting & FAST. I will change direction etc like you suggest. It is funny cause she does look at me a lot of her own accord. So much so it is almost unnerving at times. I often ask her what she needs or wants she does it so much. Until I produce FOOD & ask her to do something. Then it's , show me the FOOD !!!!

I have always used UH,UH if she stuff's up. I never get cranky at her or let on I'm disheartened. I'm really soft with both my guys. Always have been with any dog I've owned. She wouldn't know what a raised voice was.

Kavik, I tried the "It's Yer Choice" with her tonight. She caught on immediately. I had the treat clinched in my hand, she nudged it once, then laid straight down & turned her head away casually :)

Thanks guys, keep those ideas coming. Very interested. Sometimes you can't seem to see a solution clearly when you are trying so darn hard to get things right.

With Its Yer Choice you don't want them to lie down and turn their head away, you are not teaching food refusal, you are teaching focus. You want the dog to be looking at the food and keen but not to take the food until you either hand it to them or release them. If you watch the dog in the video, it is on the edge of its seat to get the food, focused on the food, not turning its head away or trying to avoid looking at the food.

Oh Stella is more like she is refusing the bait Kavik.She turns her head away. One thing I don't want to do is dampen any drive she has that's for sure. I don't want to bore her with training either. I'll rewatch that video today.

Initially I was worried about IYC and dampening drive, but it doesn't, it helps with self control and also shaping - just trying to get the food doesn't work, so try something else. Also helps a lot with focus forward for agility - focus on the work. Maybe have a look at how you are giving feedback - don't say anything, no intimidating body language, just close your fist if she tries to grab the food. If she doesn't, open your fist, and feed one. Nitro has picked this up quickly and is good at it now, I can put a treat on the ground, he will look at it until I either then pick it up and give it to him or release him to the food, which he then dives for. I have even started using it in some one jump work.

[Aidan3]

Zen, IYC, and Triangle of Temptation pinned to this forum all use the same principle and it's an important one.

[OSoSwift]

Three things that should be at the top of your mind when training:

1. Timing

2. Criteria

3. Rate of Reinforcement

The issues here are 1 and 2. Criteria is deciding what you are trying to get more of, so that you can reinforce it. You need to break everything down into tiny little pieces. E.g if your dog can't sit for more than 1 second without breaking to try to get the food, then click at 1 second (or before). Make it very clear that sitting is what will be rewarded. When she can do this 4/5 times, try 1.5 seconds. When she can do this 4/5 times, try two seconds. If she fails more than 1/5 trials, make it easier for her.

Also, work your way through the Zen exercises here: http://sue-eh.ca/page24/page26/page10/

Great link and post :)

[huski]

Re dampening drive, this will happen if what you reward for is calm behaviour because that means you are rewarding the dog for being out of drive. There are times when we do want to reward for calm behaviour but when we are training a dog for sport/competition and we want high end performance, that is not a time when rewarding for calmness or classically conditioning positions by sticking food in the dog's mouth will help you.

Ask her for a behaviour, such as 'sit'. As soon as her butt hits the ground say 'yes' (or click) and throw the food, or take a few steps back and get her to chase it from your hand. Don't think of her desire to earn the treats as something blocking you from success, it will work in your favour tremendously with a bit of tweaking :)

[Kavik]

Here is an example of IYC with food and toys and shows how it improves your focus forward, and also helps with the understanding of your release

[BC Crazy]

Oh wow ! Kavik that's really impressive stuff. That's what I want

[Nekhbet]

See I don't like it's your choice because it's rewarding the dog for focus on food. Food doesn't command the dog, it can't give cues etc so why is the dog staring at it. It should get its guidance and cues from you NOT the food. All the dog learns is patience and not to snap at your hand, not to respect you as a resource provider more. I get green puppies looking at their owners eyes instead of food on one lesson it's not hard to teach.

Just because a dog is not frothing at the mouth over you doesn't mean you're not getting what you want. Calm and in control does not equate to no drive, it helps the dog focus and learn the process and think for itself to increase the frequency of good performance. Dogs understand food, they can sustain training longer and with a lot of people it can help with positioning before introducing prey toys (if they don't have the experience with shaping positions with prey toys etc) Again I start quite a few dogs and owners with food and then when they have it solid in their minds what they do in the exercise we bring the toy in for those dogs who need it.

Exercises like the object guard in ringsports, tracking, etc can start with food despite being what people expect to be a 'drive' exercise.

[Kavik]

IYC initially does reward focus on the food, this is actually helpful for teaching focus forward for agility, where you don't want them to focus on your face, but on their line and the obstacles. There is foundation work that revolves around teaching them focus forward. That last video I posted showed perfect focus forward on the toy near the end, that is what you want. Imagine that toy represents the line you want the dog to run in agility, from your start line stay, maybe a couple of jumps at different angles but can be taken in a straight line from the way you have set the dog up. You could even imagine a distance line if you want, so you have to handle the dog from a distance over those jumps, but if they can run their line, without turning into you, that becomes no problem at all.

It does not stay focus on food though, when you introduce another exercise (eg shaping something) it helps them to realise they have to do something to get the food, and to try to work out what that is, rather than just obsess that there is food there. Doing IYC with the food in a bowl means that you can have a bowl uncovered on the ground with the food in it, and the dog won't try to get the food, and will concentrate on what you are shaping instead.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Kavik

[BC Crazy]

Aunty Nek :laugh: , Interesting... I thought the it's your choice video was great but I may be looking at it all wrong because even though the BC was very fast & focused he was in control. Still listening to the owner. Reminded me of Stella that dog. I think Stella is even faster though. But she'd be following my bait and with her eye's which is what I want to train out of her if possible. Another part of training I seem to fall down with & that's weaning off treats & just having them say work for a game of tugs after. I never quite actually know when is the right time to do so?

Edited May 3, 2014 by BC Crazy

[BC Crazy]

Must watch the next link you kindly provided Kavik :)