Training A Dog That Is Too Treat Focused ?

[BC Crazy]

Three things that should be at the top of your mind when training:

1. Timing

2. Criteria

3. Rate of Reinforcement

The issues here are 1 and 2. Criteria is deciding what you are trying to get more of, so that you can reinforce it. You need to break everything down into tiny little pieces. E.g if your dog can't sit for more than 1 second without breaking to try to get the food, then click at 1 second (or before). Make it very clear that sitting is what will be rewarded. When she can do this 4/5 times, try 1.5 seconds. When she can do this 4/5 times, try two seconds. If she fails more than 1/5 trials, make it easier for her.

Also, work your way through the Zen exercises here: http://sue-eh.ca/page24/page26/page10/

Very informative link Aidan2. Am reading with great interest. Love the easy way it is written. Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks :)

[huski]

If she works best for food there's no need to wean her off treats and onto something of less value. Many of our successful competitor clients predominantly train and compete with their dogs in food drive.

My beagle daisy was trained 100% with food and Wiz works for both but majority of our training is done in prey with tugs and balls. Work with the dog you have :)

[BC Crazy]

Thanks Huski. Shall stick to her fav. then FOOD :) Once they have learn't the command, would you then wean off the treats for reward & just verbal praise??

[Steph M]

See I don't like it's your choice because it's rewarding the dog for focus on food. Food doesn't command the dog, it can't give cues etc so why is the dog staring at it. It should get its guidance and cues from you NOT the food. All the dog learns is patience and not to snap at your hand, not to respect you as a resource provider more. I get green puppies looking at their owners eyes instead of food on one lesson it's not hard to teach.

I have one of those dogs....haha. Shame. Still, least he's focussing on something these days! :D

[The Spotted Devil]

Thanks Huski. Shall stick to her fav. then FOOD :) Once they have learn't the command, would you then wean off the treats for reward & just verbal praise??

It depends BC - see, I am constantly raising my criteria so will continue to reward with food etc. Asking for longer, further away, faster, tighter, under more distractions and only reward the best performance. Go back to an easy behaviour - might not reward that but I will link it with a more complex behaviour and reward that. Occasionally you still need to reinforce the behaviour - otherwise it may just fade away.

It's Yer Choice is not about focus. It teaches pup impulse control and shaping and teaches them they have 2 options: choose to perform the correct behaviour and be rewarded OR choose to perform the incorrect behaviour and get nothing. It has been designed for agility work (dog is faced with a tempting but incorrect tunnel entry for example) but translates incredibly well to other aspects of training eg steadiness for Gundogs (sit to the shot and don't break and you get your reward).

[BC Crazy]

I like its your choice for that reason TSD. It teaches the dog to think & teaches them impulse control. Stella needs that as she is very spontaneous, without thought at times.

Oh so it is OK to to keep using food rewards to fine tune your training. Thanks TSD. I thought I should be trying to wean off the treats but I will randomly treat when she is really sharp doing what I ask. eg. I've taught her to move into heel position from sitting in front of me. Which she nailed very quickly but her butt wasn't exactly square so got her to redo it a few times but only rewarded when her position was perfect. She still sits like a puppy at times, rear legs are a bit everywhere :laugh:

Now I really want us to nail the heel off leash. Not a real formal one but a heel none the less. We are very much a work in progress as some days you just can't train with her cause of her anxiety etc. or she is just not well with her Epilepsy.

So she is 4 this year & we are still on the basic's but that's OK. I just like to keep her mind active really as she loves to learn :)

Edited May 3, 2014 by BC Crazy

[huski]

Thanks Huski. Shall stick to her fav. then FOOD :) Once they have learn't the command, would you then wean off the treats for reward & just verbal praise??

For performance/ sport? I never remove the primary reward completely from training. I can work my dog for quite a long period of time over a number of exercises without rewarding her, but when I say "ready" and trigger her into drive I am guaranteeing she will be given a drive reward if she plays the game by my rules.

When I am training a new behavior obviously the rate of reward is higher, vs when you trial and you would do a full run out with no reward until the end when you leave the ring, but it's not often I would replicate a trial run completely in training. Part of what keeps dogs in drive is the thought that reward could come at any time.

There are many things outside of sport I might just reward with praise, every day life rewards etc. But when I want high end performance I train my dog to work in prey or food drive.

Edited May 3, 2014 by huski

[OSoSwift]

I always reward,and the same concept as Huski.

They always get a reward, it may be after a try for an exercise to 10 minutes etc, but there is always a reward.

[Kavik]

I am the same, always a reward, just increase the criteria as they improve

[The Spotted Devil]

And vary how you deliver the food - get it off your body sometimes. I hide pots of food behind trees or I have someone else throw the food (agility - focus forward) or I use a remote rewarder or I set the food on a bait plate. With the latter, I might also ask the dog to perform a behaviour (be rewarded by me) and thus ignore the bait plate - really tests understanding. The next behaviour he gets rewarded by the bait plate and you continue alternating. Classic extension of IYC. I whoop and get super excited when he performs the correct behaviour so even if he performs the incorrect behaviour and beats me to the bait plate my "so sad" body language is as effective as a NRM.

Edited May 3, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[huski]

That's a good point TSD, it shouldn't just be about the dog getting a reward but sharing in the reward experience with us. the reward on it's own should mean a lot less to the dog than it does when they share it with us. This then helps advance to a dog who won't buy into or show interest in rewards on offer from someone else or even in the environment.

Edited May 3, 2014 by huski

[OSoSwift]

Yep containers of treats around the place :)

[BC Crazy]

TSD, as the risk of sounding like a complete dummy what do you mean by NRM?

After reading some folks training ideas it is making my sessions sound far too predictable. And frankly dull.If I'm bored with them I can only imagine how my guys must feel about them. It must reflect on the dogs IMHO. I seem to get into a rut very easily & don't think 'outside the square' nearly as often as I could or should. All you folks have these amazing, different ideas so now it's time for me to get my thinking cap on & bring back some life & interest into it.

I definitely think if I begin to vary where the food rewards come from eg. hide them or throw them as suggested I think it will take some of the emphasis off my hands & will make Stella use her mind more which is my main aim really.

[ness]

NRM = no reward marker BC Crazy.

[The Spotted Devil]

No dumb questions here :) NRM = non-reward marker. It indicates to the dog that the behaviour is not correct and the behaviour will not be rewarded. You can use it to "mark" the incorrect behaviour precisely. However I have found that they can be easily overused and I am careful how and when I use them. For example, if I make a handling error in agility and send my dog off course I tend to get cranky with myself and my shoulders drop. My poor dog has simply done as I asked but then thinks he is wrong and he loses confidence - an inadvertent NRM. So I always stay upbeat when I stuff up. Also, there is little point giving a NRM if the dog is really confused (surprising how often this is the case) - just make it simpler so the dog succeeds. By the way I like a dog to be succeeding 7-8 times out of 10. Otherwise it's too hard or too easy....although sometimes reward structure can be complex, especially in retrieving as the retrieve is inherently rewarding and I also want 100% success rate on the retrieve itself - but I add praise, food and free retrieves to reward a truly great retrieve. Sorry, I digress! When I do use a NRM there has to be a clear choice of correct or incorrect behaviour (both tempting!) and I laugh when I say "Gotcha!" Keeps my dogs SUPER upbeat and just hanging out for another go.

[BC Crazy]

Thanks ness...Was just having a blonde moment :laugh:

TSD, Oh yes, I tend to correct Stella by just ignoring her error & ask her to do it again in an upbeat tone of voice. Glad to hear I'm not the only one who 'whoops' when they get it right :laugh: MrBCC is like :laugh:

That's one thing about Stella she is exceptionally good at reading my body language. Much more so than my boy. She is very in tune with me. I never get upset at her but when I get cranky at myself on occassion while taking her through her paces she has looked at me then she starts performing some of the simple tricks I have taught her like spin & things like that as if to see if that is what mum wants or this will cheer mum up :laugh: So there is a lot to be said even about the way you hold yourself isn't there?

I have found retrieve one of the main things that has helped Stella's confidence actually. It has helped her out of her shell a lot & she LOVES it & growls the whole time in excitment & enjoyment. I never really trained her to do it as she just taught herself. I threw the ball & she chased it & brought it back of her own accord. There are rare times she doesn't bring the ball all the way back to me though. like she will drop it half way. In your opinion should I just ignore that or is there a way to correct this?

[The Spotted Devil]

It depends who is training who lol! If you want her to bring it back don't reward by throwing it when she doesn't!

[BC Crazy]

:laugh: right. Sometimes I wonder LOL.

I tried that with Sonny & he is like "well I didn't want to play anyway" & refuses to bring the ball back, full stop. Bugger. He isn't a retrieve fan really. He likes the chase is all.

I have ignored Stella when she hasn't brought the ball all the way back & after waiting she will move the ball closer of her own accord. So I should wait till she moves it right to my feet then not just close enough then no matter how long it takes. K then. I know she probably will I haven't been patient enough is all I guess.

Sorry but have taken my own thread way

OK so went & did a little bit of training with Stella & at the end I rewarded he with a change 'go find your treats' in an excited voice & threw a few round. At first she was like what the hell but that changed quickly & she loved it :)

Edited May 4, 2014 by BC Crazy