Tick Season, Natural Solutions? Neem, Herbaguard Powder And Questions

[fluff1234]

Hi, just checking, I just treated my dogs again with frontline, I HATE spot ons, due to the chemical exposure for not only my poor dogs but also we have kids which are hands on with the dogs and snuggly cuddle loving dogs! One dog also pants all night for 2 nights following spot on treatments...

I live in Qld southside, in a high paralysis tick area... is tick season over?

Can I miss it a few mths now?

is there any natural spray such as neem or Diatomaceous Earth, such as in HerbaGuard Powder, ACV, garlic (how much) brewers yeast, Citrus Spray, vinegar spray etc.. do they work??

Edited April 30, 2014 by fluff1234

[sheena]

You might be interested in this recent discussion natural remedies

[fluff1234]

thanks, although it seems not recommended from views

[sheena]

I live in Northern NSW & the tick season lasts all year though I find it slackens off a bit over winter. I use Advantix fortnightly. My dogs swim everyday, but when it is time for their Advantix, I keep them dry for 24 hours before & for 48 hours afterwards. Also I apply the liquid in as many spots as I can all the way down their spine from behind their ears to the base of their tail, parting the hair so as to get as much as possible on their skin. Applying it this way, I havn't seen a tick for many months. I hate it too & if I had a small smooth haired dog then I would give the natural remedies a go, & do more thorough searches. I did buy some Skudo's at one stage & I think they worked but I had to take them off everytime they went swimming which became a real hassle

[fluff1234]

thanks, we put it in one spot between the shoulder blades, so the kids know where not too touch, I also went a mth this time, to give them a break... chemicals are horrid, we dont use them in our home and eat organically as possible, but ticks scare me!

[sandgrubber]

Diatomaceous earth, because it mechanically destroys the exoskeleton, should kill ticks if you could expose them to it, but I don't think their lifecycle involves a lot of time in the soil or in places where a powder will adhere to them. It would probably work topically, but I doubt it's going to give a high enough kill rate to be satisfactory for paralysis tick, and it isn't nice for the dog's coat.

Edited April 30, 2014 by sandgrubber

[sheena]

thanks, we put it in one spot between the shoulder blades, so the kids know where not too touch, I also went a mth this time, to give them a break... chemicals are horrid, we dont use them in our home and eat organically as possible, but ticks scare me!

You might find that one spot behind the dog's neck is not enough for a medium to large dog. The stuff works by spreading itself over the whole dog, so this is not going to stop your kids coming in contact with it after it has dried. I put it on at night just before the dogs go to bed, so that by morning it has dried & started to do its thing. My theory about distributing it along the whole spine, is that the stuff will cover the dog quicker. I dont use any more than what is recommended, just spread it out more. You must be good at searching dogs with a lot of hair to be able to go a month...either that or it was good luck, cause I find that just one day late around here is a cause for concern. I know of dogs that have gone down, when their advantix was just one day late

[fluff1234]

I dont like the idea of spreading it all over them and it doesnt say that on the intructions or the video on the webpage of their product?

.... will look into it though, I dont take them in the bush and try to avoid long grass. I normally try to leave it 3 weeks if I can..

Edited May 1, 2014 by fluff1234

[dotdashdot]

It spreads all over them anyway, this just speeds it up. I do something similar to what Sheena does, but I just basically draw a line down my dogs' backs.

The Advantix people say it's not necessary to do this, but the Frontline people do (I interact with reps). For me, there seems to be so much liquid that I want to spread it out.

I live in the same area as Sheena, and I too have heard of the ticks jumping on when the Advantix was one day late (ie. 15 days between applications as opposed to 14).

In this area, I can't risk natural remedies, the ticks are just too numerous around here. I won't forget pulling 6 paralysis ticks off a dog in the dead of winter last year, they just don't go away.

[ChewieTAG]

I read it somewhere that it says to apply only on one spot to avoid pets licking on them..

I guess you can spread it all over if you know they can't reach it on the first 48 hours till it dry up and working into their body

[sheena]

I read it somewhere that it says to apply only on one spot to avoid pets licking on them..

I guess you can spread it all over if you know they can't reach it on the first 48 hours till it dry up and working into their body

My dogs have no interest in licking it off. One dog I have to distract, straight after, with a bit of trick training otherwise he will try & rub it off on the carpet, but within a couple of minutes he has forgotten it is on him. I apply it at the end of the day when they are ready for bed. I doubt if it would taste that good that a dog would would want to lick it off :)

[sandgrubber]

I've had trouble with spot ons, not because the dog licked itself but because my dogs lick eachother. In particular, my older bitch licks her grown puppy. I don't know about Advantage, but this can be very serious with premetherin-based products. My girl ended out with horrible cluster seizures that might have killed her if they'd gone untreated, and she has had occasional focal seizures ever since. Bottom line: it may not taste good, but if your dogs lick one another, spot-on products may end up being ingested.

[sheena]

I've had trouble with spot ons, not because the dog licked itself but because my dogs lick eachother. In particular, my older bitch licks her grown puppy. I don't know about Advantage, but this can be very serious with premetherin-based products. My girl ended out with horrible cluster seizures that might have killed her if they'd gone untreated, and she has had occasional focal seizures ever since. Bottom line: it may not taste good, but if your dogs lick one another, spot-on products may end up being ingested.

Fair enough, so what do you use...or do you not get ticks overseas in Florida?? Fortunately my dogs don't lick each other.

[sandgrubber]

I've had trouble with spot ons, not because the dog licked itself but because my dogs lick eachother. In particular, my older bitch licks her grown puppy. I don't know about Advantage, but this can be very serious with premetherin-based products. My girl ended out with horrible cluster seizures that might have killed her if they'd gone untreated, and she has had occasional focal seizures ever since. Bottom line: it may not taste good, but if your dogs lick one another, spot-on products may end up being ingested.

Fair enough, so what do you use...or do you not get ticks overseas in Florida?? Fortunately my dogs don't lick each other.

We get lots of ticks, though they are more annoying than lethal.

When the ticks got real bad I tried tick collars - Preventic which contains amatraz but no premetherins. It worked well and had no side effects. I was careful to keep the tick collar buried under the leather collar so the dogs wouldn't chew them. At the moment, ticks aren't bad, so I'm not using anything.

Keeping the lawn short and getting rid of underbrush on my property seems to reduce both flea and tick problems . . . and chiggars . .. I don't think you have them in Oz. Be grateful. (Chiggars bother people not dogs and head straight for the crotch. The bites itch furiously for weeks.)

[Maddy]

Diatomaceous earth, because it mechanically destroys the exoskeleton, should kill ticks if you could expose them to it, but I don't think their lifecycle involves a lot of time in the soil or in places where a powder will adhere to them. It would probably work topically, but I doubt it's going to give a high enough kill rate to be satisfactory for paralysis tick, and it isn't nice for the dog's coat.

Other issue with DE is the constant inhalation of the dust which could cause long-term lung damage. Personally, I wouldn't do it.

To answer the others..

Neem - Will not kill ticks. May repel them. When you're dealing with paralysis ticks, may repel is not good enough.

Diatomaceous Earth - May work, but has serious risks. Silicosis cannot be cured.

HerbaGuard Powder - Main active is DE, other oils would be in trace amounts (as Pennyroyal is highly toxic) so really, it's just fancy, expensive DE that smells nice.

ACV and vinegar in general - Besides not being proven to actually work, applying enough vinegar to have any kind of effect is also going to drastically change the pH of your dog's skin from between ~5 or 7 down to ~2 (white vinegar is usually around 2). For feeding/drinking water, I can't see how this would work but either way, I don't think it's wise to be altering pH levels in such a manner.

Garlic - To be even close to 100% effective, it would have to be fed in considerable quantities. Given the risks associated with feeding garlic, I wouldn't use it for any reason.

Brewers yeast - Zero evidence.

Citrus Spray - Zero evidence and probably not pleasant for the dog, either.

I think there's a lot of demonising of the Evil Chemicals without people really understanding them. For example.. if you let your dog have anything to drink today, you've exposed it to the chemical H2O. Chemical does not mean evil and with one exception above (the DE) the "natural" remedies would rely on chemicals to repel or kill the ticks. Also, natural definitely does not mean safer. Pennyroyal oil is far more toxic to ingest than imidacloprid, for example.

If your dogs are having reactions to either the active or the carrier of one particular formulation, I'd be discussing alternatives with your vet.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Maddy

[sandgrubber]

Other issue with DE is the constant inhalation of the dust which could cause long-term lung damage. Personally, I wouldn't do it.

Diatomaceous Earth - May work, but has serious risks. Silicosis cannot be cured.

Are there any documented cases of silicosis in dogs?

Silicosis in humans typically shows up 15 to 20 years after regular exposure to crystalline silicon, eg., in daily work in mines. It seems unlikely that dogs would be at risk because (1) they don't live long enough to develop the disease; and (2) the exposure would most likely be for a few minutes a day and could be minimized by careful administration.

P.s. I tried to do a casual lit search on silicosis in dogs. The only recent article I could find was a Chinese article where they were trying to use dogs as an animal model for human silicosis. They did this by blowing ground glass, with color markers, directly into the lungs of dogs and then doing CT scans. Talk about animal cruelty!

http://aammt.tmmu.ed...ew&id=201202200

p.p.s. I think DE is worth exploring more broadly as a control for arthropod-parasitism, including the mites that cause mange. if there's a way to control a broad spectrum of parasites through physical abrasion of the exoskeleton, dog owners need to exploit it. The drug companies would prefer concocted poisons that kill fleas, ticks, mites, etc., but if there is an old fashioned remedy that does this without poison, it's worth looking at, and improving that remedy. DE has lots of variants, It's not just food grade vs. livestock grade. Could be produced, eg.., in various size classes, with sorting to avoid the sub-micron particles that get into the lungs, with high yield of the particle sizes that kill parasites.

Edited May 5, 2014 by sandgrubber

[Maddy]

Other issue with DE is the constant inhalation of the dust which could cause long-term lung damage. Personally, I wouldn't do it.

Diatomaceous Earth - May work, but has serious risks. Silicosis cannot be cured.

Are there any documented cases of silicosis in dogs?

Silicosis in humans typically shows up 15 to 20 years after regular exposure to crystalline silicon, eg., in daily work in mines. It seems unlikely that dogs would be at risk because (1) they don't live long enough to develop the disease; and (2) the exposure would most likely be for a few minutes a day and could be minimized by careful administration.

P.s. I tried to do a casual lit search on silicosis in dogs. The only recent article I could find was a Chinese article where they were trying to use dogs as an animal model for human silicosis. They did this by blowing ground glass, with color markers, directly into the lungs of dogs and then doing CT scans. Talk about animal cruelty!

http://aammt.tmmu.ed...ew&id=201202200

p.p.s. I think DE is worth exploring more broadly as a control for arthropod-parasitism, including the mites that cause mange. if there's a way to control a broad spectrum of parasites through physical abrasion of the exoskeleton, dog owners need to exploit it. The drug companies would prefer concocted poisons that kill fleas, ticks, mites, etc., but if there is an old fashioned remedy that does this without poison, it's worth looking at, and improving that remedy. DE has lots of variants, It's not just food grade vs. livestock grade. Could be produced, eg.., in various size classes, with sorting to avoid the sub-micron particles that get into the lungs, with high yield of the particle sizes that kill parasites.

I agree DE has its uses but given its mechanism of action, it would need to be reapplied very frequently and any grooming by the dog is not only going to remove it but also expose the dog to inhalation.

Using it outdoors.. now that's another matter and one worth looking into further. In a cattle study (involving GI coccidiosis), DE was added to feed and even though it obviously became wet, it continued to work. So.. it could be used outdoors on long shrubs, longer grass, etc (and kept moist) and in theory, should still be able to cut the ticks' exoskeletons and damage their eggs.

The obvious downside to this is that DE is not selective so it would also kill beneficial insects that came into contact with it, like bees.

[sandgrubber]

Other issue with DE is the constant inhalation of the dust which could cause long-term lung damage. Personally, I wouldn't do it.

Diatomaceous Earth - May work, but has serious risks. Silicosis cannot be cured.

Are there any documented cases of silicosis in dogs?

Silicosis in humans typically shows up 15 to 20 years after regular exposure to crystalline silicon, eg., in daily work in mines. It seems unlikely that dogs would be at risk because (1) they don't live long enough to develop the disease; and (2) the exposure would most likely be for a few minutes a day and could be minimized by careful administration.

P.s. I tried to do a casual lit search on silicosis in dogs. The only recent article I could find was a Chinese article where they were trying to use dogs as an animal model for human silicosis. They did this by blowing ground glass, with color markers, directly into the lungs of dogs and then doing CT scans. Talk about animal cruelty!

http://aammt.tmmu.ed...ew&id=201202200

p.p.s. I think DE is worth exploring more broadly as a control for arthropod-parasitism, including the mites that cause mange. if there's a way to control a broad spectrum of parasites through physical abrasion of the exoskeleton, dog owners need to exploit it. The drug companies would prefer concocted poisons that kill fleas, ticks, mites, etc., but if there is an old fashioned remedy that does this without poison, it's worth looking at, and improving that remedy. DE has lots of variants, It's not just food grade vs. livestock grade. Could be produced, eg.., in various size classes, with sorting to avoid the sub-micron particles that get into the lungs, with high yield of the particle sizes that kill parasites.

I agree DE has its uses but given its mechanism of action, it would need to be reapplied very frequently and any grooming by the dog is not only going to remove it but also expose the dog to inhalation.

Using it outdoors.. now that's another matter and one worth looking into further. In a cattle study (involving GI coccidiosis), DE was added to feed and even though it obviously became wet, it continued to work. So.. it could be used outdoors on long shrubs, longer grass, etc (and kept moist) and in theory, should still be able to cut the ticks' exoskeletons and damage their eggs.

The obvious downside to this is that DE is not selective so it would also kill beneficial insects that came into contact with it, like bees.

DE is not selective, but gravity is. The stuff settles to low spots, which tend to be preferred by earth-dwelling mites and instaars and is unlikely to remain in place on flowers visited by bees. Does anyone know what beneficial insects who go through larval stage in the earth? I don't think the predatory wasps do, nor ladybugs.

I agree, it would not be nice to use topically as a miticide. But some dogs can't tolerate ivomectin, and amatraz isn't the friendliest of chemicals. Mange treatments involve high doses over several weeks, sometimes with complex grooming routines.

[fluff1234]

thanks for all the replies :)

[Alyosha]

An important thing to remember is that "natural" does not automatically equate with "safe". There are plenty of dangerous and even lethal compounds around that occur completely naturally...

It might sound like a no-brainer, but many people still get lulled into a sense of safety by words like natural, or "green" etc.