Training Advice

[Shadrack]

so, i need training advice for my two kids, its become chaos in my house with them right now and its driving my housemates nuts as well as me a little haha.

I bought Ace with the best intentions, he went to puppy pre-school, and continued training at home afterwards, And Mishka (because i got her at 6 months) went to an adult puppy school also trained regularly at home. but getting very unwell for some time meant that they didnt get the training or exercise that they both needed and deserved. And now, my health is improving and im able to really get back into it with them, but as expected in that time they've also picked up some bad habits. Sorry if this ends up being long, im tired and kinda rambling a bit a weird habit of mine.

I'll start with what they know, and at what stage they are at with it, ones that are treat oriented, pretty much all of them, but im having touble getting them past the treat orientated stage >__> and lastly bad behaviors they've picked up.

Also, if you know of anything that they havent learnt or is in teaching, that dogs should be taught, im happy to take suggestions. i would actualy love to hear them

I'm also going to add in small details because i want to make it easier and i need all the help i can get lol. theyre only my second and third dogs, and my first dog i was still very young, dressing him up and putting him in my baby born pram young haha

Mishka Can take a lot of repetition to learn new things, but sometimes picks it up really quick. she has a lot where the foundation knowledge of what i want is there, we've just hit a stand still.

she currently knows and/or working on:

- sit (working on training in a release word, she'll freeze there for around 10-30 seconds depending on whats happening around and isn't completely treat orientated, but still needs a hand gesture most of the time will sometimes do it with only the command

- beg (not treat orientated but needs hand gesture)

- down (completely treat orientated

- watch me (still being trained, treat orientated with hand gesture to let her know what i want from her)

- Come, she been taught to come and sit in front of me (inside and can do with distraction most of the time, and not treat orientated, just command and hand gesture of me pointing where i want her to be. in the front yard on a long cord still working on adding more distractions so far, only allows traffic -cord is short enough so she cant get hit lol-. no lead in the backyard without distraction.)

- put them up -pretty much the beg, but she raises her paws higher, usually well above her head- (only treat oriented)

- bang bang. -follows put em up, she just drops straight down into the down position. (only treat orientated)

- bring it back. -self explanatory lol she brings the ball back during fetch, i got sick of chasing her.- (not treat or gesture orientated, just does it.)

- stay >__> (shes having a lot of trouble with stay, she'll only hold it for a few seconds each time, and theres no chance to get a treat to her in time before she moves, any movement i make, she breaks it.)

- Door manners -pretty much if the doorbell rings its to back up and wait. Hopefuly with a release word, right now she breaks it as soon as the door closes. its also to back up and wait until we've gone out the door.- This is in use for every door, the toddler gate when they get let out of my room in the morning, the back door when they go out for a play, and the front door even if theyre staying inside.- (no longer treat orientated but still in training, she makes mistakes, just body language.)

- wait -waits for you to put food bowel down then also waits for a release word before being allowed to eat.- (i guess treat oriented, i mean she gets fed afterward and only until shes done it..)

- trying to teach her clipping manners for when i trim her nails. not working, she still pulls away

- planning to teach her lead manners.

-

Problem behaviors:

- jumping (oh my goodness, she has springs in those little legs of hers. and its getting beyond a joke, your trying to walk, and shes jumping up against your legs, my elderly housemate has had many near falls, even i have. and its becoming dangerous for her, shes tripping people up and getting stood on when we try to recover our balance.

- Nipping, shes become a shocking nipper. especially when shes jumping, she'll jump up and nip at our fingers, since her mouth surgery, she doesnt hurt as much, but has still drawn blood on occasion. as well as nipping at other times.

- whining, aaaaaall day. there are times when theyre put back in the bedroom for a bit, and she whines constantly, which leads to..

- barking, Mishka is nortorious for barking, at most things and nothing

- chewing, as she gets older, this seems to be slowly fading but still happens with certain thngs. my pillow, blakets, and computer chair which now has to be thrown out.

- peeing inside! this one has been a problem since i got her. its like she doesn't want to be toilet trained. when we take her out, even if she was sniffing around, she holds it until shes back inside. and better yet, we are leading up to the colder wetter months, or so its seemed. and she refuses to walk on cold wet concrete and grass. if you put her outside, she'll simply stand there looking seriously unhappy. puppy pads where non existent in her mind so any suggestion ill happily take as well as cleaning stuff that gets rid of the smell thats safe for floorboards.

Ace Usually picks things up pretty quick. knows less than Mishka but is further along with the commands. also had less time with Ace. Ace is also picking up some bad behaviors from Mishka.

he currently knows and/or working on:

- Sit/with release word. (not treat oriented will do on command, very rarely needs the hand gesture and will hold until i give him the release word for up to a minute, or until Mishka jumps on him. Will do with distractions and almost anywhere)

- Stay obviously with release word. will hold for up to a minute or so with me across the room, currently working on turning my back to him.

- down. (rarely treat oriented but sometimes needs the motivation.)

- come (unlike mishka Ace doesn't sit in front of me, but responds to the command in a wider variety of locations, inside outside and at the park.)

- wait (same as Mishka, waiting to be told he can have his dinner, will wait more patiently and in fewer tries. usually on first command.)

- door manners Same as Mishka except that, when the command is around the front door, he'll hold until released, but the toddler gate and back door, it takes some time. haha but, was only shown the front door once. picked it up really quick.)

- rollover (not treat orientated, he thinks its the funnest thing and is all too eager to do it.)

- Clipping manners (he lays still giving me his paw while i clip his nails.. never gave treats, only a massage afterward)

- car manners (will sit/lay patiently in the car. not treat oriented no treats ever given.)

- watch me. (will watch me for quite some time. trying to wean off treats.)

Problem behaviors:

- nipping, he never did it until Being around Mishka for a while then seemed to pick it up.

- jumping? not a huge problem right now, as he will generally stop when you tell him no, or to sit then release him, but as time passes its slowly becoming more of a problem.

- barking, he doesnt really whine, but boy does he bark, literally at every sound and at nothing, he barks through the day and all night. one behavior i really need fixed, my housemates arent happy.

- chewing. not sure, ive been told its a Jack russell thing

- Peeing inside and on my bed >__> i thought the bed thing was trained out of him, but in the last few days hes started it again. now this needs to be stopped haha i sleep in that bed.. i tried puppy pads, but he thought it was the best chew toy!

If i think of more ill add them and wow sorry for length i did not mean that >__>

[hankdog]

Shadrack sounds like you've made a good start. Can you separate them whilst training. The things I was doing wrong was luring more than giving a command and then treating. So before I gave a command I would reach into my treat bag, if I didn't all I got was a sullen stare. So in a low distraction quiet environment, command - wait and then gentle leash hint. If you're asking for a down you can just step on the leash, sit - just slightly step back so the dogs head goes up and that will tend to lower the rear. Reduce your treat rate, slow or half hearted responses get a "nice try", no food. Make them work for it and you'll get a sharper response. I would stick to simple commands and getting a sharp response so they realise "we got to be snappy to get a treat." Build up to a good stay, just one step away for ten seconds at first. Also don't give them food in a bowl, kibble is amazing stuff when you got to work for it.

All the stuff you don't want them to do, really hard and hopefully some trainers will give you advice. There's a thread here about training out unwanted behaviours so that might give you an idea.

[persephone]

Shadrack ..... you sound as if your dogs needs a bit of tough love - they have plenty of affection and snuggles and care ..and now need to learn that all this wonderfulness comes with a cost!

Dogs ARE like human kids - house rules /chores/table manners/playing gently .... all that stuff is vital to learn :)

IF you can the housemate on board, and IF you are willing to work at it .. Nothing In Life Is Free should help . This involves still using treats/cuddles etc BUT the dogs ONLY get attention when their behaviour is what you want . Dogs learn this really fast , actually - because they LOOOVE their attention/treats - however it will take some time for everyone(esp humans) to learn the new routine ;)

CLICK HERE to have a read . :)

You are fortunate in having several DOL members living around melbourne who are professionals working with dogs , and who are wonderful to have at your side when learning to manage problems :)

I know there are more - apologies to those I've missed

cosmolo

nekhbet

erny

[Shadrack]

Hankdog, thanks, they do get seperated from each other during our at home kind of 'official' training sessions as they both require very different methods. Mishka needs a very calm kind reward system to be able to focus where as Ace needs a very hyper reward system if you know what i mean, mishka is happy with a treat and anything else she goes into play mode which is very hard to bring her back from but Ace needs a more obvious reward, which is generally a quick play and using that method he actually picks up things a lot more quickly and is more willing to do whats asked of him. when Mishka jumps on him, its me giving him a command bfore patting him. Athough i admit i havent really been consistent with it.

training on the lead is something i havent tried, it sounds like a good idea, ill have to try it, because at the moment, there are certain things down for example that they only do if im kneeling down pointing at the ground. they wont do it while im standing like they do with sit.

At the moment their kibble is their treats haha, they love it so much, and that Mishka has a very sensitive stomach theres a lot of things she cant eat. at the moment they sit and wait for their dinner, i thought that, that was them working for it, is there something else you suggest they do before they get fed?

Persephone, yes i think they do, being sick, i felt kinda guilty and to make up for the lack of the other stuff gave them a lot of love so now they constantly demand it. i did read that article you posted and found it very interesting, ill have to put that into effect straight away, getting my housemates on board can be tricky, ive tried training recently, and with them there really isnt any consistency, the pups will do a behaviour we dont want like peeing on the rug, and they'll pat them with the happy voice going 'now thats a bad boy/girl. naughty'

I clicked the links you posted but only the first one worked. i am looking around to get a trainer involved to help out, and trying to compare prices but many i have trouble finding the prices, if there are ones around, especially in the northern suburbs id love to speak to them

[sheena]

Have you ever had a go at clicker training :)

[Shadrack]

Have you ever had a go at clicker training :)

i have, but Mishka was actually terrified of the sound, and even after time, she stayed afraid of it but then gets really excited, its like a chain reaction from her, Ace i havent tried with clicker training

[Shadrack]

ok, tried to have a training session with Ace, and he just keeps rolling over! constantly just rolling over, he'll sit for a minute but then goes and starts rolling over again >__> i was so ecited when he learnt it but i would of liked it to be just on command lol any suggestions?

[The Spotted Devil]

ok, tried to have a training session with Ace, and he just keeps rolling over! constantly just rolling over, he'll sit for a minute but then goes and starts rolling over again >__> i was so ecited when he learnt it but i would of liked it to be just on command lol any suggestions?

That's awesome! He's offering a behaviour! My Em was doing that tonight - I was asking her to sit and I moved behind her and asked for "reverse". It's a very funny trick but she started preempting the behaviour. All I did was sit, treat, sit, move behind slightly, treat, sit, move further behind, treat, sit, move further behind, reverse, treat, sit, treat! That's a NORMAL part of learning :)

[hankdog]

Haha Jake does the "nah how bout this trick" too. It doesn't matter how cute it is, it isn't what you asked for. Stay still, look at him and wait. When he quits doing what he wants and finally gives up and looks at you, you ask for the trick (the one you want) again. If he out waits you and goes to sleep (normally faked) just so "ok no training" treats back in the fridge and walk off. He will come find you. If the only way to the good stuff is by doing what you ask they soon get it. Be consistent, be patient. You don't have to learn that trick right now, what you have to do is establish who is setting the rules.

I've heard terriers are very good at training their owners! Remember "all the goodies are yours. The only way to get them is to play by your rules."

It feels mean and rude but if you don't be the meanie goodies hoarder then you get norty dogs.

Edited April 30, 2014 by hankdog

[Shadrack]

ohhk, so its good hes constantly doing it? even when commanded to do something else?

Update. tried clicker training with Ace, he responded quite well so far to the clicker. Also noticed that 'down' and 'rollover' had the same hand gesture, so started working on a new one and now he will lay down without rolling over (most of the time) Also used my phone to time how long he'd stay in the sit with small distractions in the room (housemate kinda stomping >__>) and stopped the timer at 1 minute and released him, whats a good time that i should aim for?

RE-introduced clicker training to Mishka, shes actually not scared of it anymore, but doesnt register the click with treat yet.

[sheena]

ohhk, so its good hes constantly doing it? even when commanded to do something else?

Update. tried clicker training with Ace, he responded quite well so far to the clicker. Also noticed that 'down' and 'rollover' had the same hand gesture, so started working on a new one and now he will lay down without rolling over (most of the time) Also used my phone to time how long he'd stay in the sit with small distractions in the room (housemate kinda stomping >__>) and stopped the timer at 1 minute and released him, whats a good time that i should aim for?

RE-introduced clicker training to Mishka, shes actually not scared of it anymore, but doesnt register the click with treat yet.

If you are interested in doing the clicker & want to make sure you are doing it right if you click on this link Introduction to Clicker Training & go down to the PDF File you will find most of what you need to know to get started the correct way. Also if you can get hold of any of Karen Pryors books...it is a fascinating science :) My dogs & I love it

[Shadrack]

ive started looking at that link, and ill finish it when i get home, its very interesting, so far ive been following another site -cant remember which one- i read ages ago when first getting the clicker, and it said to begin, click, then treat, and repeat this until the dog realizes the click means its getting a treat. is this correct? i had trouble really seeing that in the introduction on the site you posted.

[The Spotted Devil]

ohhk, so its good hes constantly doing it? even when commanded to do something else?

Update. tried clicker training with Ace, he responded quite well so far to the clicker. Also noticed that 'down' and 'rollover' had the same hand gesture, so started working on a new one and now he will lay down without rolling over (most of the time) Also used my phone to time how long he'd stay in the sit with small distractions in the room (housemate kinda stomping >__>) and stopped the timer at 1 minute and released him, whats a good time that i should aim for?

RE-introduced clicker training to Mishka, shes actually not scared of it anymore, but doesnt register the click with treat yet.

It's not good that he's constantly doing it. It's good that he is offering you a behaviour and trying to earn a reward. Simply start rewarding some other behaviours and only reward the roll over if you have asked for the behaviour. If I gave you a chocolate every time you slammed the door I reckon I could guess what you would start doing. Provided you like chocolate of course!

[Shadrack]

ohhk, so its good hes constantly doing it? even when commanded to do something else?

Update. tried clicker training with Ace, he responded quite well so far to the clicker. Also noticed that 'down' and 'rollover' had the same hand gesture, so started working on a new one and now he will lay down without rolling over (most of the time) Also used my phone to time how long he'd stay in the sit with small distractions in the room (housemate kinda stomping >__>) and stopped the timer at 1 minute and released him, whats a good time that i should aim for?

RE-introduced clicker training to Mishka, shes actually not scared of it anymore, but doesnt register the click with treat yet.

It's not good that he's constantly doing it. It's good that he is offering you a behaviour and trying to earn a reward. Simply start rewarding some other behaviours and only reward the roll over if you have asked for the behaviour. If I gave you a chocolate every time you slammed the door I reckon I could guess what you would start doing. Provided you like chocolate of course!

Quickly brought him out for a quick training session, and being a fast learner he started figuring out that rollover didnt get him what he wanted (although hed throw it in there a few times just to make sure haha) but i also really worked on teaching a new hand cue for down, i think having the same cue was confusing him, and i didnt mean to do it, it just kinda happened, and within 5-10 minutes, he learnt the different cues and will lay down now instad of rolling over. im so proud of my little boy..

Although, lately his attention has drifted, he seems much more interested in sniffing the rug than actually focusing properly, which was strange because for once i had mishka's undivided attention. it happens sometimes but shes usually quite easily distracted.

[silentchild]

Not sure if I missed it but have you considered joining an obedience club or something? You could meet like-minded people there who would be able to help you in person as well.

[Shadrack]

Not sure if I missed it but have you considered joining an obedience club or something? You could meet like-minded people there who would be able to help you in person as well.

they've both been to puppy school, different ones, Ace was puppy pre-school, and mishka did individual lessons at Kintala if thats how you spell it, the ony thing in, Ace went really well in a group environment, he seems to really enjoy training and learning, but Mishka is the opposite in a group setting, shes a very excited dog naturally and gets excited over the smallest thing to the point where shes jumping and dashing around, and i worry about that taking her to a group environment, i am currently looking in getting a trainer to come to my house to get them both started before attempting a group environment, but i a interested in obedience classes, but i really wouldnt know which ones around here are good.

[Shadrack]

i have another quick question, Training the dogs, during a session, should i focus on teaching them to master one command, or work on a variety of commands?

[hankdog]

I always have a few oldies, a few recent tricks and inly one that's really new or shaky. Keep sessions short, we do an outside afternoon session mostly out on the road nowadays but used to be in the garden that I do a bit of a walk, a few stays, some focused heelwork and maybe just a few tricks.

We have winding up tricks that sort of amp him up, barking, round in circles, jumping up. Then we have calming tricks, go to sleep, dying, and I throw these in so he learns to go up and down in arousal.

You can use your tricks to get your dogs to greet people appropriately, to self soothe and generally get them to focus on you.

Everytime you boil the kettle you can do three or four tricks. That's enough.

[Shadrack]

I always have a few oldies, a few recent tricks and inly one that's really new or shaky. Keep sessions short, we do an outside afternoon session mostly out on the road nowadays but used to be in the garden that I do a bit of a walk, a few stays, some focused heelwork and maybe just a few tricks.

We have winding up tricks that sort of amp him up, barking, round in circles, jumping up. Then we have calming tricks, go to sleep, dying, and I throw these in so he learns to go up and down in arousal.

You can use your tricks to get your dogs to greet people appropriately, to self soothe and generally get them to focus on you.

Everytime you boil the kettle you can do three or four tricks. That's enough.

thanks :) i think i need to change it up, Ace seems to have become so incredibly bored with training >__> i might have to try different treats, or try a different room, the lounge room seems to have too many temptations for him (the rug) and maybe have housemates walking around and the TV on is just a little too much for him. and the treats i use is simply the food they get at feeding time, so maybe hes a little bored of that too.

[hankdog]

I've no experience with terriers but I have heard they are smart and challenging to train. Jake has many problems so I am always bossing him around. In the middle of doing washing sorting I'll just tell him to roll over, give him a treat and keep going. It helps tell them all the time there is the pissibilty of training so keep an eye on the great treat dispenser.

I Woukd definitely try getting a trainer, if you say where you are people will recommend a good one. Brenda Aloff has a good training guide and I think one of her dogs was a terrier. What I liked about her book was it is very structured and you can follow it week by week, once you've got through one set of skills you move on to the next. She's all about focus and it's a very practical book.