Breed Selection Advice

[tobie]

One thing I forgot to ask about these breeds of dogs are any of them known barkers as I'd prefer to avoid dogs that have a tendency to bark alot as I've lived next to people that have dogs that bark all day and I would hate to do that to my new neighbours.

Thanks again :)

[denali]

One thing I forgot to ask about these breeds of dogs are any of them known barkers as I'd prefer to avoid dogs that have a tendency to bark alot as I've lived next to people that have dogs that bark all day and I would hate to do that to my new neighbours.

Thanks again :)

Cavaliers generally arent, I didnt think Cockers were either. But my friend got one recently and he is :/

In fact so much so the neighbours started throwing things over the fence at him

Apparently they commonly get seperation anxiety, and thats often why they bark.

Though this would also be in the training aspects of the dog, and you seem rather dog savvy, so its probably ok :)

[BlaznHotAussies]

I had a relative with a lovely Cocker spaniel and she was about the same age as their eldest daughter! Absolutely golden temperament and so affectionate. Really great with the kids, their three girls basically grew up with her.

My Aunty also has a Cav and he's awesome too

Hard decision!!

[denali]

I have worked at a dog daycare as well, and having done so, I think that the environment may not show all dogs at their best, or even what they are normally like. So I wouldn't base your opinions purely on what they are like there.

I agree Kavik, its just that all of them are the same. Which i found a little odd

[Kavik]

I have worked at a dog daycare as well, and having done so, I think that the environment may not show all dogs at their best, or even what they are normally like. So I wouldn't base your opinions purely on what they are like there.

I agree Kavik, its just that all of them are the same. Which i found a little odd

Some breeds just do not do well at dog daycares. I would include Kelpies in that list. My dogs would not act the same in a dog daycare as they do at home, that's for sure.

Your description showed they were overwhelmed by the environment - maybe they just don't like to be surrounded by strange dogs and all of that activity and stress all day long?

Edited April 27, 2014 by Kavik

[Leah82]

One thing I forgot to ask about these breeds of dogs are any of them known barkers as I'd prefer to avoid dogs that have a tendency to bark alot as I've lived next to people that have dogs that bark all day and I would hate to do that to my new neighbours.

Thanks again :)

Our cocker barks when someone knocks on the front door and he gets a bit excited when we get home from work but that's about it unless the possums are being pretty noisy.

But like other people said this one comes a lot down to training and making sure the dog gets used to spending time alone from day 1.

[rusty&biscuit]

I'm also a bit shocked at the experiences others have had with cockers...I've never met a nasty one to be honest. All the ones who come to get groomed are so placid and lovely, and we used to live next door to one who was with a family of kids ranging from 1-16. That door never barked, and was such an awesome and gentle playmate for the kids. I have however heard of a workmates mothers (confusing anyone yet?) dog, from a registered breeder breeding for a certain colour, who had severe epilepsy. This turned her off the breed but she has since got a dog from Macdolly who is just gorgeous, and very healthy at that. I know another from that kennel currently being shown in neauter and starting agility, she is a lovely dog too. Sorry for the spiel, but I think if raised right they can be beautiful, easy-going dogs that can be great with children (I say easy-going comparing to my 3 mad dogs :laugh: )

[Jed]

some people's experience here with cockers is interesting, they're definitely not supposed to be timid or snappy according to the breed standard and it's not been my experience. Finding the right breeder and obviously training, socialisation and lots of love should prevent this from being an issue.

This. I've never found a snappy or timid Cocker ever.

I tried to help rehome one and the dog had what they call "Cocker rage", it wasn't nice behaviour - the dog was from a registered breeder. I've met many lovely Cockers though so important to find a very good breeder.

Are you sure it was "Cocker Rage" and not a badly treated, untrained, out of control alpha dog ensuring he had his way? AFAIK, the Cocker breeders desexed, and prevented breeding of any dogs from "cocker rage" families about 40 years ago, and I think it is most unlikely there would be any dog with that problem now.

Dogs are often diagnosed, incorrectly, with cocker rage, when that is not the problem.

[Jed]

Tobie - in your place, I would get a Cocker Spaniel. Not too difficult to acquire a show specimen, and not too expensive. You will wait for a long time for a Yank, and you may never get a show quality Cavalier. Cavaliers also change drastically from 8 - 10 weeks to adulthood, and it is possible to choose what everyone thinks is a show prospect, and find you have a lemon, whereas it is not so difficult to tell with Cockers. Things can and do go wrong,but not as often!

Please go to a reputable breeder - and find one who will mentor you with grooming and showing in the beginning. I would go to shows in your area (join DogsNSW)and watch the dogs, and what is winning .... over half a dozen shows, or more.

Wait until the classes are over, approach someone who is winning, and who you like the look of, and talk to them. Do that with a few breeders. It should not be too difficult to buy a nice show male within a reasonable time.

[Dogsfevr]

You won't have a long wait for a Yank at all ,breed regularly in all states by good breeders ,you may have to wait if you want a certain colour but easy to get a Yank .

In Yanks bathing is the easy part its the scissoring that requires a good teacher & a dedication each week

[Leah82]

some people's experience here with cockers is interesting, they're definitely not supposed to be timid or snappy according to the breed standard and it's not been my experience. Finding the right breeder and obviously training, socialisation and lots of love should prevent this from being an issue.

This. I've never found a snappy or timid Cocker ever.

I tried to help rehome one and the dog had what they call "Cocker rage", it wasn't nice behaviour - the dog was from a registered breeder. I've met many lovely Cockers though so important to find a very good breeder.

Are you sure it was "Cocker Rage" and not a badly treated, untrained, out of control alpha dog ensuring he had his way? AFAIK, the Cocker breeders desexed, and prevented breeding of any dogs from "cocker rage" families about 40 years ago, and I think it is most unlikely there would be any dog with that problem now.

Dogs are often diagnosed, incorrectly, with cocker rage, when that is not the problem.

I too had thought that cocker rage had all but been eliminated through careful breeding, although I supposed this doesn't necessarily include BYB's and puppy farmers.

The rescue that I got Sarah from often has retired cocker spaniels relinquished from the same puppy farm

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I must say I'm finding it a really hard decision to make as there are so many positive things about all these dogs.

Tobie - I think a good thing to do now is to look up some of the breed clubs in your state, and get along to some of their social events or all breed dog shows and meet them.

That will make it much easier to choose. You will meet people and dogs you like and maybe some you don't like and discuss what you and they need and that will narrow your choice but give you more confidence in it.

It also really helps the breeders if they get to meet people who are interested in their dogs and a potential puppy - you're more likely to get a puppy from them than if you just send an email.

https://www.google.com.au/#q=spaniel+club+nsw&safe=active

some of them have facebook pages that get updated more often than their web pages.

And DogsNSW has the list of shows. If you want to show - you need to check the breeder and their dogs are listed with them - which is most likely if you meet them at a DogsNSW show. Not so likely if you find them on gumtree where registered often means "registered with the local council".

Sorry about the dogs nsw format - they don't make it easy.

http://www.dogsnsw.org.au/activities-a-events/shows-and-trials-guide.html

[julesluvscavs]

One thing I forgot to ask about these breeds of dogs are any of them known barkers as I'd prefer to avoid dogs that have a tendency to bark alot as I've lived next to people that have dogs that bark all day and I would hate to do that to my new neighbours.

Thanks again :)

Mine have had their yapping moments, but I'm at home most days, all day, so if they yap at something, unless they are letting me know there's strangers around, I tell tell them to be quiet. Our almost 12 year old does yap more than she used too, but i think its because she's deaf and she probably thinks it hers way of getting our attention. With her i put my finger near my lips to tell her to sshhh

They do carry on when we first leave them to go out somewhere and when we come back home, but in between they are fairly quiet. We skype video them so we can hear that they are not being too noisy.

Our young one hasn't been too noisy, but she does have a high pitch shrill howling sound on her when she can see my husband out the back doing something and she wants to be with him. I do correct her when she does it.

I think with every breed of dog, some are going be quiet individuals and others are going be noisy ones.

You will find that if dogs are barking too much, there's usually something going on thats setting them off eg they are bored etc

Edited April 28, 2014 by Jules❤3Cavs

[Jed]

You won't have a long wait for a Yank at all ,breed regularly in all states by good breeders ,you may have to wait if you want a certain colour but easy to get a Yank .

In Yanks bathing is the easy part its the scissoring that requires a good teacher & a dedication each week

Depends on what you call not having to wait. Friend in Q approached many breeders in all states, took over 12 months to get a boy. I don't think colour was an issue.

[The Spotted Devil]

It's also about finding a breeder you click with - I had several breeds on my wish list and the Dalmatian was NOT one of them lol. I was recommended to contact a breeder by a work colleague and I was so impressed with their approach and the grilling I got that I then waited 2 years for a Spotty Pup.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

12 months is pretty reasonable if a breeder doesn't have any puppies right now.

Ie they have to choose and test the potential parents for good DNA compatibility.

They have to wait for the bitch to come in season (could take 6 months or so),

and then get pregnant

and then gestate and give birth

and then 8 to 12 weeks before can take puppy home.

That doesn't leave much time out of a year for a planned litter.

[sandgrubber]

I'm also a bit shocked at the experiences others have had with cockers...I've never met a nasty one to be honest. All the ones who come to get groomed are so placid and lovely, and we used to live next door to one who was with a family of kids ranging from 1-16. That door never barked, and was such an awesome and gentle playmate for the kids. I have however heard of a workmates mothers (confusing anyone yet?) dog, from a registered breeder breeding for a certain colour, who had severe epilepsy. This turned her off the breed but she has since got a dog from Macdolly who is just gorgeous, and very healthy at that. I know another from that kennel currently being shown in neauter and starting agility, she is a lovely dog too. Sorry for the spiel, but I think if raised right they can be beautiful, easy-going dogs that can be great with children (I say easy-going comparing to my 3 mad dogs :laugh: )

Research done at the University of Barcelona has not helped the Cocker's reputation . . .looks like there have been other studies of the same.

http://www.journalve...e/S1558-7878(08)00140-8/abstract.

Aggressive behavior in the English cocker spaniel

• Marta Amat, DVM, Dip. ECVBM-CA,
• Xavier Manteca, DVM, MSc, PhD, Dip. ECVBM-CA,
• Valentina M. Mariotti, DVM, Msc,
• José Luís Ruiz de la Torre, DVM, PhD,
• Jaume Fatjó, DVM, PhD, Dip. ECVBM-CA

School of Veterinary Medicine, Universitat Autónoma de Barcelona, Bellaterra (Cerdanyola del Vallés), Spain

• Abstract
• Full Text
• PDF
• Images
• References

Abstract

A high percentage of aggression problems and a tendency to display noninhibited aggression in the English cocker spaniel (ECS) have been suggested by many authors. The authors of this paper designed a retrospective study to analyze the aggressive behavior of 145 ECSs presented for aggression problems to the Animal Behavior Service at the Barcelona School of Veterinary Medicine's veterinary teaching hospital. Aggressive ECSs were compared with a population of dogs of the same breed presented for a behavior problem other than aggression and with a population of aggressive dogs of other breeds. The most common forms of aggression in the ECS were owner-directed aggression (67.6%), aggression toward unfamiliar people (18.4%), aggression toward unfamiliar dogs (10.1%), and aggression toward family dogs (3.3%).Owner-directed aggression was more common in the ECS than in other breeds, although in similar contexts. In the ECS, the golden coat color was more common in the aggressive dogs than in nonaggressive dogs. ECSs showed impulsive aggression more frequently than aggressive dogs of other breeds. The aim of the study was to analyze cases of aggressive ECSs seen in a referral practice.

[Wundahoo]

I'm also a bit shocked at the experiences others have had with cockers...I've never met a nasty one to be honest. All the ones who come to get groomed are so placid and lovely, and we used to live next door to one who was with a family of kids ranging from 1-16. That door never barked, and was such an awesome and gentle playmate for the kids. I have however heard of a workmates mothers (confusing anyone yet?) dog, from a registered breeder breeding for a certain colour, who had severe epilepsy. This turned her off the breed but she has since got a dog from Macdolly who is just gorgeous, and very healthy at that. I know another from that kennel currently being shown in neauter and starting agility, she is a lovely dog too. Sorry for the spiel, but I think if raised right they can be beautiful, easy-going dogs that can be great with children (I say easy-going comparing to my 3 mad dogs :laugh: )

Research done at the University of Barcelona has not helped the Cocker's reputation . . .looks like there have been other studies of the same.

http://www.journalve...e/S1558-7878(08)00140-8/abstract.

Aggressive behavior in the English cocker spaniel

• Marta Amat, DVM, Dip. ECVBM-CA,
• Xavier Manteca, DVM, MSc, PhD, Dip. ECVBM-CA,
• Valentina M. Mariotti, DVM, Msc,
• José Luís Ruiz de la Torre, DVM, PhD,
• Jaume Fatjó, DVM, PhD, Dip. ECVBM-CA

School of Veterinary Medicine, Universitat Autónoma de Barcelona, Bellaterra (Cerdanyola del Vallés), Spain

• Abstract
• Full Text
• PDF
• Images
• References

Abstract

A high percentage of aggression problems and a tendency to display noninhibited aggression in the English cocker spaniel (ECS) have been suggested by many authors. The authors of this paper designed a retrospective study to analyze the aggressive behavior of 145 ECSs presented for aggression problems to the Animal Behavior Service at the Barcelona School of Veterinary Medicine's veterinary teaching hospital. Aggressive ECSs were compared with a population of dogs of the same breed presented for a behavior problem other than aggression and with a population of aggressive dogs of other breeds. The most common forms of aggression in the ECS were owner-directed aggression (67.6%), aggression toward unfamiliar people (18.4%), aggression toward unfamiliar dogs (10.1%), and aggression toward family dogs (3.3%).Owner-directed aggression was more common in the ECS than in other breeds, although in similar contexts. In the ECS, the golden coat color was more common in the aggressive dogs than in nonaggressive dogs. ECSs showed impulsive aggression more frequently than aggressive dogs of other breeds. The aim of the study was to analyze cases of aggressive ECSs seen in a referral practice.

Sandgrubber your link doesnt work,,,,,, but I do know the paper and it's been around for a while. It actually hit the press under the heading of "the Worlds nastiest dog breed" or something to that effect..... typical of the press and their journalistic hype.

As a scientist, Sandgrubber, I expect that you would know that there are limitations and faults in every research report. This one has several, but of course the main one is that the study was conducted over a small area of Spain and many of the dogs were closely related to each other or came from the same human families. This paper has not attempted to analyse the family relationships ie the pegigrees of the dogs involved nor are they clear about the basic facts of the dogs in the study, originating from a small regional area. It's unfortunate that this piece of information has been excluded form the report. They do note that the majority of cockers with aggression were golden in colour. World-wide this is the colour most frequently bred by puppy farmers and BYB's and sold in retail outlets as it is the colour most in demand from the pet buyer.

I think that the important thing is to remember that temperament in a breed is often different from place to place, region to region and country to country and is often influenced by regional breeding programmes.

Many years ago there was a temperament problem in cockers in the UK. This was dubbed "Rage Syndrome" and there was a lot of research into the problem. UK breeders worked very hard to eliminate this problem and it has largely disappeared from the breed in that country. However, it seems that any cranky cocker spaniel that has a less than desirable temperament is now said to have rage syndrome, simply because people have heard the term used.

Around the time that this isse was first noted in UK there were many cockers exported from UK all over the world and there has been high percentage sent to Spain where they were bred from extensively. The breed is immensley popular in Spain and of course this means that there is also a lot of indiscriminant breeding by those who simply want to supply the pet market.... buyer beware !

Australian breeders have worked really hard to ensure that the temperament of the cockers produced from kennels that are seriously involved in the breed are as the breed standard requires.... and the majority are sweet, gentle, happy and trustworthy.

Perhaps things might be different in the breed in Spain and so I dont think that such a paper as this should be used to colour the opinions of people who are considering a cocker in Australia !

Many years ago, and long before your time in the breed Sandgrubber, there was a line of Labradors in Western Australia that were known to produce less than desirable temperament. The people who bred these dogs were either oblivious to the problems being encountered by the owners or just didnt care and they continued to chug out litter after litter of labs that were dubious in behaviour. The breed began to develop a poor reputation here and its popularity declined among the pet buyers. It made it difficult for those who were doing the right thing and I'm sure that if there was an internet and forums in those days the issues would have been debated heavily and many people would have had their horror stories of yellow labs with bad temperament !!! Thankfully, the kennels concerned are no longer breeding and the labs in this stae have a reputation for sweet and gentle natures..... as they should.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Wundahoo

[Leah82]

I see your veterinary journal article sandgrubber and raise you a completely biased meme :p

[DeltaCharlie]

12 months isn't long to wait at all. We have people who have been on a waiting list for 6 years Can't help that the first litter Link only had 4 pups (and we were keeping 1), and the second litter only 3 pups (we were keeping one each and the sire's owner was taking the 3rd). These people are still really keen for our lines, the bitch has since been desexed so they are waiting for a pup out of her daughter, possibly later in the year if we breed her. Otherwise midway through next year.

Ours girls don't seem to come in before 12-14months and then cycle every 10 months. If people want a puppy badly enough, they have to wait for the timing to suit us. As a teacher, it is best timing if they come in during October to give us December pups and gives me 6 weeks at home with the pups over Summer. It means waiting a few years for that timing to happen though.

As far as the original post goes, I think your best bet is to get out there and meet some dogs. Sure, meet the breeders too, but no point becoming best friends with a breeder to then meet the dogs and decide you don't even click with the breed. Watch them in the show ring, but also interact with them during downtime. Shows can be pretty busy and stressful for people (in my limited experience), so the other option would be something like agility/obedience trials. Not sure where in NSW you are, but there are breeders of all 3 of those breeds actively trialling their dogs in agility in Sydney (not sure about Obedience but sure there would be), as well as Cavalier people on the South Coast and near Canberra. It may be a more relaxed environment to have a chat and a play with their dogs and ask some questions about the breed. I don't know the show world very well, and wouldn't feel comfortable in it meeting people myself. If you are familiar with it though you may feel more comfortable and know better than I would when to approach people and when not to :)