Tug

[huski]

I guess I WANT obstacles to be rewarding. Add in sufficient impulse control and it's magic. You can build up a helluva lot of speed and confidence, especially with the tunnel. And often it's not that the obstacles that are self rewarding it's that the handler is a fraction of a second late with their cue.

I guess don't see any purpose to an obstacle or exercise being rewarding on it's own. I ask my dogs to do a lot of inherently boring things (stays, heel work etc) but because I build a lot of value and drive for the rewards I offer they do anything I ask with speed, focus and enthusiasm. IME it gives you ultimate control if your dog sees any exercise as the vehicle to get it to having a reward experience with you rather than a certain exercise holding value on it's own. IME training a dog to have a lot of value for an exercise or obstacle can be a bit of a slippery slope.

Edited April 26, 2014 by huski

[Kavik]

But, huski, I assume your dog does have value for heel position? By shaping it and by rewarding that position, you are giving that position value = good things happen when I am in heel position.

[huski]

But, huski, I assume your dog does have value for heel position? By shaping it and by rewarding that position, you are giving that position value = good things happen when I am in heel position.

I think there is a difference between a dog having value for a position because of reward history and a dog that enjoys taking obstacles just because the action itself is rewarding.

If the dog has value for it because the exercise itself is fun it will self reward even if you are offering another reward. It doesn't give you a lot of control if the dog has more value for the exercise than what you have to offer.

Not sure if that makes sense :)

[Kavik]

That makes sense :)

However it can be useful to use an exercise the dog enjoys to help build speed/enthusiasm for something else - such as tunnels or wraps around poles to help speed up contacts or two rows of jumps with a tunnel or even the humble speed circle/speed circuit.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Kavik

[megan_]

A lot of dogs find tunnels rewarding, even if you never reward them . After all, racing through a tunnel is fun . I think the key in agility is balance . We reward contacts but don't often reward a straight boring jump. No surprise the dog goes off course to do the thing that earns it the most reward.

[huski]

That makes sense :)

However it can be useful to use an exercise the dog enjoys to help build speed/enthusiasm for something else - such as tunnels or wraps around poles to help speed up contacts or two rows of jumps with a tunnel or even the humble speed circle/speed circuit.

I (obviously) don't do agility or intend to so I can only speak from my experience and the way my mind works. Having my dogs lack drive or speed or enthusiasm for an exercise isn't something I've experienced before but I don't do agility so maybe I would find a new challenge to work through if I did!

[Kavik]

Contacts seem to be one of the more tricky ones in my experience. I want my dog to race across the contact obstacle as fast as possible but then stop with front feet on the grass and back feet on the obstacle until released. Regardless of where I am and what I am doing. I have found it can be difficult to balance the control of the stop with the speed you want across the obstacle. If the dog gets rewarded a lot for the stop, or is a more worried type dog, they will slow down across the obstacle, rewarding only the release can lead to losing the stop. Even people with high drive dogs can encounter this problem. I did SG's contact course, and her dog certainly does not lack drive, and even she had some issues with this, especially with speed across the seesaw.

And not everybody doing agility has super high drive dogs, so using things like tunnels to help speed them up can be a very useful tool.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Kavik

[RiverStar-Aura]

Since starting agility training with Zeus, I've noticed that he does have amazing drive, I'm just not sure where his drive lies. He learns VERY fast and is highly enthusiastic with each obstacle but he's always eager to check back to see what I want him to do next. He'll drive full pelt towards ramps, tables, tunnels, jumps but he will often keep checking in on me to make sure he doesn't miss a cue I've given.

Regarding the tugging, I guess I'm struggling with the 2 x 2 weavers because I'm being encouraged to use a tug to teach the weaving. If I'm running a full practise course with Zeus I find I don't need treats or a toy to build drive because he just wants to work and goes at the obstacles like a bull at a gate. Maybe he's more of a self rewarding dog because it seems that as long as he's having fun, I don't need to worry about treats or playing.

Hopefully it won't be raining on Monday and I'll get my brother to come along to one of our training sessions and I can show you how he works. Although I might post it in the agility thread instead.

[huski]

If I'm running a full practise course with Zeus I find I don't need treats or a toy to build drive because he just wants to work and goes at the obstacles like a bull at a gate. Maybe he's more of a self rewarding dog because it seems that as long as he's having fun, I don't need to worry about treats or playing.

Don't forget RSA that the most important part is having a good training foundation and if he is doing the course just to do the course and is having fun on his own without you it will cause problems in the long run. Even when you use rewards there is a difference between using treats or a toy as a reward at the end of the exercise and a dog that is motivated to do the exercise to partake in the reward experience with us. If his primary motivation is to run the course, not to work with you to earn the rewards you have on offer it can create problems.

[RiverStar-Aura]

If I'm running a full practise course with Zeus I find I don't need treats or a toy to build drive because he just wants to work and goes at the obstacles like a bull at a gate. Maybe he's more of a self rewarding dog because it seems that as long as he's having fun, I don't need to worry about treats or playing.

Don't forget RSA that the most important part is having a good training foundation and if he is doing the course just to do the course and is having fun on his own without you it will cause problems in the long run. Even when you use rewards there is a difference between using treats or a toy as a reward at the end of the exercise and a dog that is motivated to do the exercise to partake in the reward experience with us. If his primary motivation is to run the course, not to work with you to earn the rewards you have on offer it can create problems.

I totally understand that too Huski; Zeus is a hard one to peg. He won't go over/under/through obstacles unless I tell him and he's always watching/waiting to see what I tell him to do next. Ours is an odd relationship because I think there are some things he doesn't need me for but then there are so many time he looks to me for direction. I think poor Zeus's main issue is having a numpty for an owner -- but I try the best I can!

[The Spotted Devil]

Since starting agility training with Zeus, I've noticed that he does have amazing drive, I'm just not sure where his drive lies. He learns VERY fast and is highly enthusiastic with each obstacle but he's always eager to check back to see what I want him to do next. He'll drive full pelt towards ramps, tables, tunnels, jumps but he will often keep checking in on me to make sure he doesn't miss a cue I've given.

Regarding the tugging, I guess I'm struggling with the 2 x 2 weavers because I'm being encouraged to use a tug to teach the weaving. If I'm running a full practise course with Zeus I find I don't need treats or a toy to build drive because he just wants to work and goes at the obstacles like a bull at a gate. Maybe he's more of a self rewarding dog because it seems that as long as he's having fun, I don't need to worry about treats or playing.

Hopefully it won't be raining on Monday and I'll get my brother to come along to one of our training sessions and I can show you how he works. Although I might post it in the agility thread instead.

You can absolutely train 2x2 with food - try throwing cheese cubes. If you want to place the food use a bait plate so it's easy to see.

[RiverStar-Aura]

Since starting agility training with Zeus, I've noticed that he does have amazing drive, I'm just not sure where his drive lies. He learns VERY fast and is highly enthusiastic with each obstacle but he's always eager to check back to see what I want him to do next. He'll drive full pelt towards ramps, tables, tunnels, jumps but he will often keep checking in on me to make sure he doesn't miss a cue I've given.

Regarding the tugging, I guess I'm struggling with the 2 x 2 weavers because I'm being encouraged to use a tug to teach the weaving. If I'm running a full practise course with Zeus I find I don't need treats or a toy to build drive because he just wants to work and goes at the obstacles like a bull at a gate. Maybe he's more of a self rewarding dog because it seems that as long as he's having fun, I don't need to worry about treats or playing.

Hopefully it won't be raining on Monday and I'll get my brother to come along to one of our training sessions and I can show you how he works. Although I might post it in the agility thread instead.

You can absolutely train 2x2 with food - try throwing cheese cubes. If you want to place the food use a bait plate so it's easy to see.

That's a great idea TSD! I've been discouraged from throwing food through the poles because we were at the stage where Zeus first had to learn to drive through the poles on his own rather than being lured by way of tug or treat. I like the idea of placing a plate or Tupperware container down but wouldn't that be teaching Zeus to drive for the reward rather than him learning it's about the poles instead?

Zeus and are are approaching week three of this course and he's at the stage where he's driving through the poles and then I throw the tug in a straight sight line as a reward. Because he's not interested in the tug (I've even got one that has a treat pouch stitched onto it), Zeus is starting to circle back to look to me to find a treat. It's hard because this is the only local club I've found who teach 2 x 2 weavers and it's a concept I struggle with when trying it on my own at home. I'm just getting more and more disappointed each class because they place such high emphasis on tugging and Zeus just isn't a tugging dog. The other dog in my class is an 18 month old Westie, who, being a terrier, loves his tugging and like my own Kirah, gets his feral on for the tug.

I think I made it harder too because before class started last week, I had Zeus chasing me for his most favourite duck toy in the world and we were having this MAD game of tug with it. Then, we start class and Zeus gets his learning hat on and he's more about 'what's next?' or 'what do you want me to do now?' and he's suddenly all work and no play.

[The Spotted Devil]

2x2 is a great way to teach weaving as it really does emphasise independence. No matter how you are rewarding you are rewarding him for driving through the poles. But the trick is to shape it NOT lure it. The reward value will transfer to the poles eventually but you will always need to reinforce entries, exits and test your criteria and his limitations. I work on running in the opposite direction with Zig to really proof the weaves - very hard but teaches the dog to put his head down and finish his job. Whether you use tug or food vary the delivery. Sometimes on you (great for reinforcement zone), sometimes thrown (by you or someone else - great for drive) and sometimes placed (great for "see? No treats on me!" - handy to have someone pick up the reward if he doesn't meet your criteria - also remote rewarders are awesome for training alone). If my dogs get the reward when they haven't met my criteria just a drooping shoulder from me and a sad "oh well" is enough to make the cheese taste sour. When they succeed I have a huge party with lots of cheering and that is equally as important. If your dog likes to fetch then simply asking him to get it and bring it to you is enough - I do this with Em as her formal retrieve is incredibly reinforcing and reliable. But I make a MUCH bigger deal of it.

I love that you are having mad games of tug!!!! What I suggest is that you make those games of 10s duration but ask for a simple behaviour first - set up ONE jump away from training (on low height), do that and have him chase you to tug like crazy. Slowly build up. Tug can be hard because 110% concentration is required. You can't tug and think about something else - people, dogs, food, weather, equipment etc.

Simplify, simplify, simplify :)

I'm terribly tired after a LONG and successful day of trialling so sing out if anything is incomprehensible or incomplete.

Edited April 26, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[Kavik]

Since starting agility training with Zeus, I've noticed that he does have amazing drive, I'm just not sure where his drive lies. He learns VERY fast and is highly enthusiastic with each obstacle but he's always eager to check back to see what I want him to do next. He'll drive full pelt towards ramps, tables, tunnels, jumps but he will often keep checking in on me to make sure he doesn't miss a cue I've given.

Regarding the tugging, I guess I'm struggling with the 2 x 2 weavers because I'm being encouraged to use a tug to teach the weaving. If I'm running a full practise course with Zeus I find I don't need treats or a toy to build drive because he just wants to work and goes at the obstacles like a bull at a gate. Maybe he's more of a self rewarding dog because it seems that as long as he's having fun, I don't need to worry about treats or playing.

Hopefully it won't be raining on Monday and I'll get my brother to come along to one of our training sessions and I can show you how he works. Although I might post it in the agility thread instead.

You can absolutely train 2x2 with food - try throwing cheese cubes. If you want to place the food use a bait plate so it's easy to see.

That's a great idea TSD! I've been discouraged from throwing food through the poles because we were at the stage where Zeus first had to learn to drive through the poles on his own rather than being lured by way of tug or treat. I like the idea of placing a plate or Tupperware container down but wouldn't that be teaching Zeus to drive for the reward rather than him learning it's about the poles instead?

Zeus and are are approaching week three of this course and he's at the stage where he's driving through the poles and then I throw the tug in a straight sight line as a reward. Because he's not interested in the tug (I've even got one that has a treat pouch stitched onto it), Zeus is starting to circle back to look to me to find a treat. It's hard because this is the only local club I've found who teach 2 x 2 weavers and it's a concept I struggle with when trying it on my own at home. I'm just getting more and more disappointed each class because they place such high emphasis on tugging and Zeus just isn't a tugging dog. The other dog in my class is an 18 month old Westie, who, being a terrier, loves his tugging and like my own Kirah, gets his feral on for the tug.

I think I made it harder too because before class started last week, I had Zeus chasing me for his most favourite duck toy in the world and we were having this MAD game of tug with it. Then, we start class and Zeus gets his learning hat on and he's more about 'what's next?' or 'what do you want me to do now?' and he's suddenly all work and no play.

I think I know which club you go to :) I have friends which also go to that club. You could also try a food box/food container which I suggested a few pages back. Bigger and heavier than a single piece of food, it would be easier to see for the dog and easier to accurately throw as well. You can either then race/run with the dog to the container and reward there or have the dog retrieve the container to you. If you see two ladies at the club, one with a Corgi and a Sheltie and the other with a fantastic b/w BC, approach them, tell them you know me through DOL (they are on DOL too but rarely visit) and ask about how to use a food box/food container as the lady with the Corgi is using one, and the other lady is her daughter who has been helping her mum with it.

That club is probably the only one I know with such a big emphasis on tugging. I understand why - a lot of their stuff is SG based and she is very pro tugging for every dog (in order to train with her in her actual classes in Canada, your dog must tug). If you can't get the tugging going, or decide you don't want to, you may just need to be upfront with them about it, and let them know you have an alternative for those exercises.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Kavik

[sheena]

When I am teaching 2 x 2, I like to put down a line which is usually the ribbon base of my "stick in the ground" weavepoles, but you could also use a rope pegged down. It gives you a line to work on & I place the target where the 12th pole would normally be. People tend to forget that there is more to a set of weave poles than just the poles...there is the base running along the ground, which if the dog keeps his head lowered, as he should, he will be following this as well as bending through the poles. By placing the target at the position where the 12th pole should be, teaches your dog to continue running straight ahead instead of looking back at you in anticipation of you throwing a treat or a toy. If the dog learns to look back at you, he will more than likely pop out of the poles when you get more than a few poles up. When you are getting close to weaving with 12 poles then move the target further away, even to the other side of a jump or tunnel. You don't have to have a treat on the target either, if you have taught your dog to target an object. Sometimes have a treat on the target & other times run in & put the treat on the target. By using a target your dog will learn to run through till he finishes the weaves no matter what you as a handler are doing & amid other distractions. :)