Tug

[Kavik]

Sorry to hijack againI also have a question -

Ive been trying to builf speed and drive and I've switched to using a toy and tugging when training at home. I've found it produces much faster, exciting work from her. She is very enthusiastic to tug with any toy I choose, she's always been naturally toy motivated. Except when there's food around. Then she expects a food reward. Unfortunately I believe this is my fault, if I was starting over id use toys as I think she definitely has enough motivation for a game.

I think they way I have been rewarding her with food as well has created a half hearted effort. Even when I now try to make the food exciting by throwing etc the performance still isn't as good as with a toy. This is reversed in a trial situation though...

Is it possible to switch over to a toy/tug at this late stage (she's 4 years old) or is it too late?

So it sounds like your issue is tugging around food as she expects the food and then doesn't want to tug?

What I did to help with this problem with Kaos, was to start small. I started with an empty treat bag on the ground at a distance away and got him to tug, then tugged closer to the treat bag until I could tug on the top of it, pick it up etc over several sessions. Then started the process again with the treat bag with treats in it, but closed so he couldn't self reward. Then I got to the point where I could tug and take a treat out of the treat bag and he would continue to tug.

Another thing, which did work (which I did after the other one) is to have food in a bowl on the ground or chair etc, and if they won't tug, go further away until they will tug, and once they give you good tugging you can take the tug out, and run to the food.

With both of these, distance is the key.

With my young dog, I started tugging around food bowls the day I got him home, so that is not an issue. Although tugging right after he has had a food reward is still a work in progress. He is very motion sensitive though, so tugging around lots of people and other dogs, however . . . :laugh:

Edited April 25, 2014 by Kavik

[huski]

Aussielover it's never too late to start really, its more about how much time and effort you want to put into it.

Regardless of whether you are using food or toys as a reward, it's really important to build a good work ethic by making the dog try hard and raising the bar at the right time. If you always pay for mediocre work or moderate effort, you won't see any improvement.

[aussielover]

Kavik, isn't that more like rewarding for tugging, rather than tugging being the reward itself?

Really her favorite thing is chasing a ball but unfortunately not practical in a lot of situations!

Edited April 25, 2014 by aussielover

[huski]

Kavik, isn't that more like rewarding for tugging, rather than tugging being the reward itself?

Really her favorite thing is chasing a ball but unfortunately not practical in a lot of situations!

Will she play with a ball on rope?

[Aidan3]

Regardless of whether you are using food or toys as a reward, it's really important to build a good work ethic by making the dog try hard and raising the bar at the right time. If you always pay for mediocre work or moderate effort, you won't see any improvement.

Agreed. I would say if she clearly prefers the food, build the behaviour you want with that.

[Kavik]

Kavik, isn't that more like rewarding for tugging, rather than tugging being the reward itself?

Really her favorite thing is chasing a ball but unfortunately not practical in a lot of situations!

With the first example, no it isn't, as you are just using food as the distraction, in the treat bag. They are not getting the food, but learning that they can tug even with food around.

With the second example, I guess you could see it that way if you want to.

Kaos's favourite reward is a ball, so that is what we use at the end of an agility run. I can have him tug on his lead before a run to rev him up, but use a ball at the end. In training, not a problem, ball in pocket, throw the ball at the end of the sequence! At trials it requires a bit more work. I have his ball in his treat bag, which I place at the exit to the ring, when we finish our run, we go to the treat bag, I give him his ball to hold, then we walk/run to an area where I can throw it for him a couple of times.

I use tug with Kaos at home to work on one jump stuff, tunnel work, relationship building stuff, retrieve, and other fun things, but only use it at training or trials to rev him up for a run, a bit of fun. He was 5 when I started to teach him tug, so I never quite got to the point where I could use it at training/trials as a reward

Edited April 25, 2014 by Kavik

[Kavik]

Here is an example of getting them to tug around food

[aussielover]

Kavik, isn't that more like rewarding for tugging, rather than tugging being the reward itself?

Really her favorite thing is chasing a ball but unfortunately not practical in a lot of situations!

Will she play with a ball on rope?

Yes but she mainly plays with the rope part. She wont tug with the ball in her mouth like you see a lot of dogs doing. I think the fun in in the chase of the ball for her... She also prefers when she has to "work" to find it eg. if it falls in a patch of tall grass or bushy area.

Edited April 25, 2014 by aussielover

[aussielover]

Just wanted to add- hope you have fun with your pup Yonjuro!

I using find toys and tugging very fun for both dog and handler.

If I had a choice i'd take a toy motivated dog over a food motivated dog. I wish I had spent more time with my dog as pup building reward with a tug or toy and decreasing the emphasis on food (she's a labrador she doesn't need any encouragement on that front!.

Although perhaps others can comment, in my (limited) experience it seems that food and prey drive go hand in hand, ie dogs that are very toy motivated also seem pretty food motivated and vice versa although its usually dogs that are insanely food focused that seem to also love toys as opposed to dogs that just take a treat now and then.

[Kavik]

Actually I know some people who have to work to get their dogs to take food rewards but they love to tug! SG is one of them, with Swagger, and I have met a couple of people who said their dogs would spit food out if they tried to use it in agility! I'm so used to the other way around, would probably do my head in if I ever get a dog like that :laugh:

[~Rumour~]

Actually I know some people who have to work to get their dogs to take food rewards but they love to tug! SG is one of them, with Swagger, and I have met a couple of people who said their dogs would spit food out if they tried to use it in agility! I'm so used to the other way around, would probably do my head in if I ever get a dog like that :laugh:

My girl is one of those, she will spit food out or pretend to take a treat but actually not take it if she thinks I'm not paying attention but loves her tug. It made attending a traditional obedience club an issue as she would spit the treats back at the instructors that tried to make her eat them, we weren't allowed to use a tug because it would teach here to bite people...... Needless to say we left the club and she will happily do any obedience command for her tug or ball.

[huski]

Wiz has a higher prey drive than food drive and will always choose tug or ball over food. However she has a high food drive too, so I have the best of both worlds. I do prefer working with prey drive overall but there is also a lot of benefit to using food. I trained Daisy 100% with food and she still works awesomely, I never found it impeded us in any way.

Playing tug is only fun if the dog enjoys it :)

I know dogs with high prey drive and moderate food drive, high prey drive doesn't always equate to high food driven.

when selecting a dog I would choose one with high drive for both.

Edited April 25, 2014 by huski

[lovemesideways]

I think you need to look at the dog you have, not think of the dog you wish you had. If your dog adores food, then work with food! Why spend all the time trying to build prey when you already have so much to work with? I think it comes from people seeing food as a static thing thats very boring, but tug has so much movement involved.

This is a pretty terrible video, but it shows how you can have food move around and be fun!

Riddick was trained in a very boring food static approach a number of years ago, so we're fixing it by making food fun and making training fun again :)

Edited April 25, 2014 by lovemesideways

[The Spotted Devil]

For me, it's less about using tug as the ultimate reward at a trial but a lesson for my dogs about choosing the reward I offer them. It spills into agility - take the easy tunnel suck or take the harder back of jump? Em would spit out food to retrieve game to begin with (her ultimate reward) but I need to be able to call her off several types of awesome game and ask her to pick up a dummy in training. Of course you can use food to train agility (I mostly do) but tug is a very handy thing to learn to teach even if you ultimately don't use a lot of it. Freezing cold here trialling today and tug was great to use as part of a warm up - I didn't want Zig chasing down food at top speed until he'd warmed those glutes up.

Edited April 26, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[huski]

TSD that's an interesting point re choosing the reward you offer. I see a lot of dogs that will self reward on equipment (not just in agility, some dogs will do it with the dumbbell in obed etc). If I send my dog to the tunnel but as she's about to enter it I call out "yes" (her release to reward command) she won't continue taking the tunnel, she will divert to have the reward experience with me. Similarly I can recall her from a decoy if I send her to take a bite on the sleeve. It's important to me that my dogs see equipment/an exercise as the vehicle that gets them a reward with me, not a reward in itself. Nothing is more rewarding that responding to my commands.

Edited April 26, 2014 by huski

[sheena]

TSD that's an interesting point re choosing the reward you offer. I see a lot of dogs that will self reward on equipment (not just in agility, some dogs will do it with the dumbbell in obed etc). If I send my dog to the tunnel but as she's about to enter it I call out "yes" (her release to reward command) she won't continue taking the tunnel, she will divert to have the reward experience with me. Similarly I can recall her from a decoy if I send her to take a bite on the sleeve. It's important to me that my dogs see equipment/an exercise as the vehicle that gets them a reward with me, not a reward in itself. Nothing is more rewarding that responding to my commands.

That's why I use a clicker to shape a behavior which is always going to be followed by a treat & not the "yes" word. I reserve the "yes" word for indicating that they have taken the right tunnel, or obstacle or weave pole entrance & "yes" to them means "I have chosen the right obstacle so I will keep going". On the other hand, if I clicked when they entered the right tunnel etc, they would pull out & come back to me for a treat. Often I will click when they have finished an obstacle if they have done it well & that lets them know I am happy with them & they are keen to do it again. If you use the "yes" word instead of a clicker when shaping a behavior you will run into the same problem that Huski has outlined above. And I know we have had this discussion before, so I don't want to sidetrack the thread with another one on clicker V yes :)

[The Spotted Devil]

I guess I WANT obstacles to be rewarding. Add in sufficient impulse control and it's magic. You can build up a helluva lot of speed and confidence, especially with the tunnel. And often it's not that the obstacles that are self rewarding it's that the handler is a fraction of a second late with their cue.

[Kavik]

Completely OT but tunnel/dogwalk discriminations are the downfall of many a team, me included at times :laugh: Yes, we have done that circle/vortex of fun at a couple of comps. Ideally you want the obstacles to have similar value and your handling to be clear as to which one you want them to take, but sometimes one or both are lacking :laugh:

With the cue and run in the newer handling systems, sending to obstacles and commitment is going to become more important

Edited April 26, 2014 by Kavik

[megan_]

Sheena, yes is exactly the same as a clicker. I use both yes and the clicker and use "good" to mean they've done the right thing but need to continue. In huskies scenario, I believe she wants to call her dog off the obstacle. If she wanted them to continue she would say good (or whatever bridging word she uses).

I only use my clicker to mark free shaping.

[huski]

Sheena, yes is exactly the same as a clicker. I use both yes and the clicker and use "good" to mean they've done the right thing but need to continue. In huskies scenario, I believe she wants to call her dog off the obstacle. If she wanted them to continue she would say good (or whatever bridging word she uses).

I only use my clicker to mark free shaping.

Thanks Megan, that's exactly what I mean.

I meant if I release my dog to a reward she wouldn't continue taking the obstacle, this to me is desirable.

If I want to use a terminal bridge word to say the dog is getting it right and to continue what they are doing I say "good".

I fade the good once the behavior is proficient and if I tell my dog to take a tunnel she will do it at full throttle with just the word "tunnel".

I have used a clicker for some things, but I don't find it necessary when I have a great verbal communication system already established. I primarily use shaping to train behaviors, Wisdoms heel work for example was 100% trained with shaping (no luring) and 95% of it was with a toy. I didn't use a clicker just verbal markers.

ETA: whether you use a clicker or a verbal marker, the marker only has meaning when you assign a meaning to it. I could use the word bananas instead of yes and it would mean the same thing.

Edited April 26, 2014 by huski