Natural Tick Prevention

[Salukifan]

I was unaware that on this internet discussion forum, one had to supply research data in order to share an idea that some may not have thought of or heard of??

No guarantees have been made, I merely sought to share something that seems to be widely used elsewhere. Isn't this what a forum is about?

I like to think this forum is about people being allowed to express concern about tje sharing of ideas that float around the internet but that have no proven history for working here, not elsewhere.

Had you not decided to treat my concern with a somewhat patronising *sigh*, I'd not have responded further.

If someone is deciding whether or not to use RG oil in one drop on a dog's collar because its way cheaper than Advantix, has "no adverse side effects" and is "natural", I think it only fair that they be given a word of caution about its lack of proven track record, don't you?

That caution seems to be distiling into "caution, may not work". I'd say people should know that. They should also know that the impact of using RG oil in combination with other tick preventatives seems to be an unknown. I think that's important.

But that's it from me. Far be it for me to rain on the parade of anyone advocating an idea for fear that dogs might suffer as result. My bad.

I personally hate the idea of dousing your dogs in insecticide to keep them safe but you have to weight up the consequences of NOT doing it before you stop.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Yonjuro]

I was given a similar recipe a few years ago from an agility competitor who lives in an extremely high tick area on the north coast. He has a large number of dogs, varying sizes and breeds, and absolutely swears by it. Said others visit with dogs who have had advantix etc put on them and they are pulling multiple ticks off each day. He is lucky to find one a year. He started off trying it on the JRT as she was easy to find ticks on, when she wasn't getting any he started trying it on some of his other smooth coated dogs and went from there as his confidence grew.

We don't have ticks here and I was never really brave enough to try it myself anyway, but there are people out there in Australia, in high paralysis tick areas who are swearing by it too. I also know of someone who used to use it on his newfoundlands on the south coast in a high tick area. I remember thinking he was a brave, brave man- but he never had an issue with ticks.

I will say though, I don't know the exact mixes these people were using or how they were applying it. Would it be more effective as a mist over the dog or spots on the collar?

Thanks for contributing to this discussion. It is good to hear your thoughts on this.

For me personally, discussions like this are a win-win for me and my canine companion. If more people say "nah, it's rubbish, tried it, doesn't work" then I can add this to my 'toolbox' and seek alternatives. If more people have positive results then it can be added as potential preventative measure. So what I am saying is that this is not a personal crusade for me, I am just interested in doing as much research as possible to further my knowledge and ability to keep my dog healthy and happy.

[Steve]

I believe that you put a drop of the oil on the outside of the collar, not directly on the skin.

Like all treatments it is pretty hard to get 100% results with anything, but hedging your bets in prevention seems worth it when there appears to be no adverse side effects.

I consider tick paralysis to be a pretty adverse side effect if it doesn't work.

How would a drop of oil on a dog's collar deter ticks when most ticks are found attached forward of the dog's shoulders??

sigh...

Sigh all you like. When you can produce some evidence that rose geranium oil provides an effective deterrent to paralysis ticks, you'll have my complete and undivided attention. People in the USA don't have their dogs' death as a side effect of using this oil as a tick preventative.

The fact that something Is "natural" is no guarantee of safety or efficacy for veterinary use. Many naturally occuring substances are highly toxic and what is safe for human use is not necessarily safe for dogs. I'd not more trust RG oil for tick prevention that I'd trust garlic for hydatit tapeworm prevention, or nosodes for parvo prevention no matter how often someone suggests it on an internet forum.

If

There are numerous classes of compounds that make up essential oils. The two main groups of compounds are called hydrocarbons and oxygenated hydrocarbons. It is the sub-categories such as ketones, esters and phenols that really tell you the medicinal properties. So it's entirely possible to be able to determine which oils should or should not be used and what properties an oil has which can potentially predict its ability to do what it is renowned for and any possible potential side effects. Therapeutic oils have different chemical properties to other types of essential oil too.

Many herbs and oils have had scientific studies done on them and many commercially produced products use essential oils and herbs for this reason.

Scientifically we know that ticks choose their host by scent so changing the scent of the animal potentially changes its suitability to be chosen by the tick. Finding the scents which a particular parasite seems to prefer to avoid as long as they are not causing any harm and used as directed is reasonably potentially a viable option. Obviously no matter what product you use whether it be a herbal one or a manufactured chemical one you still need to keep an eye on it and be sure it's working.

There may not be loads of scientific studies but everyone I know who has used this over the past 40 or so years tells me it works and does no harm to their animals. That's a better track record than commercial dog food or most other manufactured treatments.

It's a personal choice some will rely on commercially prepared preparations some will prefer to research a natural alternative and decide if they want to go one way or the other. Some will consider manufactured chemicals as being the greater evil. Thank heaven we have free choice.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Steve

[Salukifan]

There may not be loads of scientific studies but everyone I know who has used this over the past 40 or so years tells me it works and does no harm to their animals. That's a better track record than commercial dog food or most other manufactured treatments.

It's a personal choice some will rely on commercially prepared preparations some will prefer to research a natural alternative and decide if they want to go one way or the other. Some will consider manufactured chemicals as being the greater evil. Thank heaven we have free choice.

The key word Steve, is "research". Internet forums tend to be a bit thin on that for some natural therapies recommended. You tend to get "my friend used it on Fido and it worked a treat". For example, I'd want to know about the impact of any natural oil if ingested (because you're going to be spaying it on dogs on a very long term basis) and on pregnant bitches. A cursory internet search says RG oil is best avoided during pregnancy because it can have a hormonal effect. I'd want to know that before using it on any breeding bitch, wouldn't you?

The greatest evil of all from where I sit on the use of any chemical preparation (commercial or otherwise) on a dog is ignorance.

[Steve]

There may not be loads of scientific studies but everyone I know who has used this over the past 40 or so years tells me it works and does no harm to their animals. That's a better track record than commercial dog food or most other manufactured treatments.

It's a personal choice some will rely on commercially prepared preparations some will prefer to research a natural alternative and decide if they want to go one way or the other. Some will consider manufactured chemicals as being the greater evil. Thank heaven we have free choice.

The key word Steve, is "research". Internet forums tend to be a bit thin on that for some natural therapies recommended. You tend to get "my friend used it on Fido and it worked a treat". For example, I'd want to know about the impact of any natural oil if ingested (because you're going to be spaying it on dogs on a very long term basis) and on pregnant bitches. A cursory internet search says RG oil is best avoided during pregnancy because it can have a hormonal effect. I'd want to know that before using it on any breeding bitch, wouldn't you?

The greatest evil of all from where I sit on the use of any chemical preparation (commercial or otherwise) on a dog is ignorance.

Agreed but there are hundreds of research papers on Geranium oil [and others] used as a repellent - google scholar is packed with them and various other uses and ample methods for a dog owner to check the potential uses and side effects. Such precautions are usually included on packaging - they certainly are on anything that leaves here.

Personally Id like everyone who ever considers using anything on themselves or their animals to do their own research first and make educated decisions but its difficult to follow why its O.K. for someone to recommend a manufactured chemical without being concerned that they haven't done their research but greater concern for a natural alternative.

[essentialdog]

I completely disagree that it is safe to put neat essential oils on your dogs coat. It is very dangerous and there is a good reason why the APVMA will not allow more than 1% of essential oils in any product for dogs. Products that use more than 1% dilution of essential oils have to register their products with the APVMA as a pet medicine and go through rigorous empirical testing for safety and it can take years for such a product to be approved. I was speaking to one of the owners of rosehip vital and they had to go through 4 years of testing before they could convince the APVMA to finally approved it as safe. Those that fail to do so face heavy fines.

There are some citrus oils such as lemon verbena and grapefruit that contain extraordinarily high levels of d-limonene and linalool (a naturally occuring chemical in eo's) and the amount of natural chemicals present in the oils can only be used at less than 0.01% as they cause photosensitivity and can potentially cause severe allergic reactions. Check out the state of this dog here (click for link) that used a product with higher than the recommended dose of d-limonene (5%) and then you may think twice. The equivalent of 5% d-limonene is probabaly like putting a 30% dilution of a citrus oil on your dog. Essential oils are very complex to formulate safely and require calculating the chemicals present in the eo blend and ensuring these naturally occuring chemicals fall under the recommended safety limits so no allergic reaction occurs. I spent an entire year analysing our blends and the natural chemicals present in our essential oil blends for our products and also took them to another lab to double check. The lab issued a certificate of analysis of the chemicals in the blends and we had to calculate to make sure there was less than 0.01% of d-limonene and linalool in the rinse off products and 0.001% in the leave-in. For those of you who are interested I've linked a copy of one of the certificate of analysis below - this will give you a better idea of how complex eo's are to formulate safely and hopefully make you think twice before throwing a few drops of neat essential oils on your dogs.

Lastly, although essential oils have some preservative qualities they are certainly not adequate as a preservative alone if adding water, however studies have shown that less synthetic preservatives can be used when using oils such as tea tree and lavender. If you dilute the eo's with a carrier oil instead of water and add an antioxidant such as mixed tocopherols then that should increase the shelf life and stop the oils from going rancid. There is a fair amount of journal articles, literature and articles on the net on what is or isn't a preservative.

CERTIFICATE OF ANALYSIS

Edited April 16, 2014 by essentialdog

[Steve]

I completely disagree that it is safe to put neat essential oils on your dogs coat. It is very dangerous and there is a good reason why the APVMA will not allow more than 1% of essential oils in any product for dogs. Products that use more than 1% dilution of essential oils have to register their products with the APVMA as a pet medicine and go through rigorous empirical testing for safety and it can take years for such a product to be approved. I was speaking to one of the owners of rosehip vital and they had to go through 4 years of testing before they could convince the APVMA to finally approved it as safe. Those that fail to do so face heavy fines.

There are some citrus oils such as lemon verbena and grapefruit that contain extraordinarily high levels of d-limonene and linalool (a naturally occuring chemical in eo's) and the amount of natural chemicals present in the oils can only be used at less than 0.01% as they cause photosensitivity and can potentially cause severe allergic reactions. Check out the state of this dog here (click for link) that used a product with higher than the recommended dose of d-limonene (5%) and then you may think twice. The equivalent of 5% d-limonene is probabaly like putting a 30% dilution of a citrus oil on your dog. Essential oils are very complex to formulate safely and require calculating the chemicals present in the eo blend and ensuring these naturally occuring chemicals fall under the recommended safety limits so no allergic reaction occurs. I spent an entire year analysing our blends and the natural chemicals present in our essential oil blends for our products and also took them to another lab to double check. The lab issued a certificate of analysis of the chemicals in the blends and we had to calculate to make sure there was less than 0.01% of d-limonene and linalool in the rinse off products and 0.001% in the leave-in. For those of you who are interested I've linked a copy of one of the certificate of analysis below - this will give you a better idea of how complex eo's are to formulate safely and hopefully make you think twice before throwing a few drops of neat essential oils on your dogs.

Lastly, although essential oils have some preservative qualities they are certainly not adequate as a preservative alone if adding water, however studies have shown that less synthetic preservatives can be used when using oils such as tea tree and lavender. If you dilute the eo's with a carrier oil instead of water and add an antioxidant such as mixed tocopherols then that should increase the shelf life and stop the oils from going rancid. There is a fair amount of journal articles, literature and articles on the net on what is or isn't a preservative.

CERTIFICATE OF ANALYSIS

Perhaps the requirements placed on commercially prepared formulations is why many people turn to herbal and EO remedies.

Mis- use almost anything will lead to problems and allergies can occur to anything.

Linalools are the chemicals in a plant that make the fragrance. They all react identically chemically but they all smell differently to humans and other animals and bugs. Man has been able to replicate the fragrance using man made linalools but as yet they are miles away from being able to replicate the therapeutic reaction the oils and plants have. The linalools that smell like Rose Geranium smell the same but wont repel the ticks or do anything else the herb is famous for . The pharmaceutical data bases list such thing as individual active ingredients but dont take into account how often something that has a potential side effect is negated by other components in the oil.Many of the chemicals in essential oils havent even been identified yet and each has hundreds of them which react differently based on how it works synergistically with its own individual chemistry to produce its action.

Actions of oils are not due to one or another chemical and the whole oil and not just isolated chemicals tell the whole story. An aromatherapy product may smell nice but only those which have pure therapeutic oils will have a chance at doing what traditionally the buyer expects to get. Its usually only when the are oxidised and used in high concentrations that they become a potential skin problem.Link

You can compare the amount of d-limonene of any concentration in any oil to a probable equivalent to that chemical in citrus oil but you cant predict the reaction because citrus is citrus though each citrus is different and regardless of the amount of the chemicals it will have different results than any other oil because of what else is in them. Both Basil and Lavender have linalool - linalool is a known sedative but not many would say that even though Basil has heaps more that it has the same calming reaction.

Fact is pure limonene and linalool have anti-cancer effects. One study found that "...linaloolexhibited comparable IC(50) values to the commercial drug vinblastine on theACHN cell line" in killing liver cancer cells.This study found that linalool "may improvethe therapeutic index of anthracyclines in the management of breast cancer,especially in MDR tumors." In otherwords, it aided breast cancer drugs in killing breast cancer cells that hadgrown resistant to the drugs Link . Linalool also shows promise against leukemia.Among the substances tested "linalool showed the strongest activityagainst histiocytic lymphoma cells U937 (IC50: 3.51 microg/ml, SI: 592.6) andBurkitt lymphoma cells P3HR1 (IC50: 4.21 microg/ml, SI: 494.1)." link

Lavender oil - not a chemical component of it - has been found to kill anti biotic resistant hospital staph. Link

Basil oil has been found to kill cancer cells yet it has 2 chemicals in it known to be a carcinogenic - methyl chavicol- Estragole which co incidentally maybe negated by the high linalool in it .Carnosol which is also in it has been shown to inhibit human prostate cancer cells.it has been shown to inhibit liver cancer . Basil leaf extract has been found to be highly effective in inhibiting carcinogen-induced lung tumor incidence in experimental mice. Basil oil and its components have been shown to have significant anti-proliferative activity in the mouse leukemia and kidney cells. basil oil has been found to significantly inhibit carcinogen-induced squamous cell carcinoma in the stomachs of experimental mice and no one is sure what in it bumps off cervical cancer cells. If we only look at the possible carcinogenic bits we would miss a lot.

We all run around being careful to say don't use it neat because of the chemicals in it not necessarily because using it neat pure and non oxidised is a problem. Yes some will cause skin problems but not all of them even though they have linalools.

My point is that databases dont give an accurate picture because they address the chemical and not the other information. This may explain why there is such an interest in alternatives which historically do the job.

With regard to the OP Rose geranium oil has been used by people for numerous herbal remedies for hundreds of years and it has stood the test of time.

Those who have used it on their dogs and horses say it works and none are reporting adverse skin issues. Considering its also a proven anti inflammatory its unlikely to cause a huge rash or health issue if a drop drips onto the skin - though if course no one would recommend using it in such a potentially dangerous manner.

I grow Lavender - acres and acres of it and the plant ,oil and distilled essential oil is often handled by me and my family neat and often used for a variety of first aid issues for humans and dogs. So far - 40 years - no rashes.

[sheena]

I used a combination of RG & Lavender oil & almond oil dabbed on the collar a few years ago & I think from memory it worked but I had to keep applying it every couple of days. If I had a smooth haired dog, I would definitely be giving it another go, but with Border Collies...I can't take the risk. The way that I apply the Advantix seems to be almost 100% effective, but I hate what I think it may be doing to my dogs' health I also found the Skudo type thing worked as well, but with both the RG & the Skudo rely on my dogs wearing collars & to me that is a problem, as they don't wear collars when they are at home or running around the farm.

[Jed]

I have no idea whether essential oils would act as tick preventatives or not.

There is proven research for chemicals which repel ticks. As far as I can see, there are no peer reviews for EO and ticks.

It is possible to say anything on the internet and swear it is gospel, as no one has any means of checking.

I live in an area with lots of paralysis ticks. I use Advantix, and a daily physical check. I would love to use something effective which was cheaper than Advantix.

But I wouldn't risk my precious dogs' lives because of something I read on the net.

It's good to read these things, and discover more about them, but when the dog's life is at stake, you do need some peer reviews, or some objective research.

Feeding the dog sulphur is reputed to prevent ticks and fleas too. Proof?

[essentialdog]

I have no idea whether essential oils would act as tick preventatives or not.

There is proven research for chemicals which repel ticks. As far as I can see, there are no peer reviews for EO and ticks.

It is possible to say anything on the internet and swear it is gospel, as no one has any means of checking.

I live in an area with lots of paralysis ticks. I use Advantix, and a daily physical check. I would love to use something effective which was cheaper than Advantix.

But I wouldn't risk my precious dogs' lives because of something I read on the net.

It's good to read these things, and discover more about them, but when the dog's life is at stake, you do need some peer reviews, or some objective research.

Feeding the dog sulphur is reputed to prevent ticks and fleas too. Proof?

Agreed. Whilst rose geranium eo is a good at repelling ticks, I would not use it solely as a tick preventative and also use advantix on my dog - wouldn't risk it.

[essentialdog]

It is not the nature of the product, nor what volume it is made in that makes it commercial, it is the act of selling a product that makes it commercial. Just because a product is commercial or produced in larger quantities doesn't automatically mean it is not herbal or alternative and just another chemically laden product people are trying to avoid. Commercially produced simply means producing to sell whether it is a small batch or a large quantity such as an acreage of lavender and the same rules apply to both if the product is being sold. These rules don't apply if you're making products for personal use only.

The fact is selling a product whether commercially prepared, home made, sulphate based, organic, sold out of the back of a truck or at pet barn, must comply with APVMA regulations and one of those regulations is <1% essential oils unless a product is a registered veterinarian medicine and it takes a lot of time and scientific analysis and research before the product is approved. The APVMA are there to protect consumers by monitoring products on the market to ensure they are safe and they have a wealth of information available to consumers. If it is policy to use <1% I personally would not being using any more than that on my dog as natural ingredients are very powerful and if not used properly, can be very dangerous.

I am not inclined to say The European Cosmetics Directive (5th Amendment)is a load of baloney. Although I do believe both parties would be very conservative in their recommendations, however it is my opinion these recommendations apply to any eo, whethere it be TPG or otherwise. My supplier is a recommended provider of TPG eo's and used by many alternative therpists and they provide us with documentation on the TPG oils. They also charge through the nose for it (especially the rose otto)so I am a little taken aback by the assumption we don't use TPG eo, although I do agree the odds are against most people sourcing eo's as there are less than 10% of eo's that are genuinely TPG.

Alot of people simply don't have the time or resources to do their own research and although forums and google are okay, are certainly not a reliable source of information.

I think as a pet owner, it is great to think outside the box and do your own research, however there is a plethora of misinformation on the net. Scientific studies are a reliable resource if one is able to interpret the data, but simply reading an abstract of a study does not provide data and is akin to reading the backcover of a book as opposed to reading the entire book so people need to get a copy of the full study, not just the abstract.

I'm a bit tired of feeling like I have to defend myself and my business and it's not why I joined this forum. I'm not here to answer a question, followed by 'buy my product' in every post. If I wanted to promote my business, as per the forum rules would advertise in the advertising section. I enjoy and get alot out of reading the posts and sharing ideas with other dolforum members as a dog owner. Additionally if I can be of help, i'm very happy to share some of my expertise to those asking questions pertaining to green chemistry and natural alternatives for dogs.

Edited April 18, 2014 by essentialdog

[sandgrubber]

I was unaware that on this internet discussion forum, one had to supply research data in order to share an idea that some may not have thought of or heard of??

No guarantees have been made, I merely sought to share something that seems to be widely used elsewhere. Isn't this what a forum is about?

I like to think this forum is about people being allowed to express concern about tje sharing of ideas that float around the internet but that have no proven history for working here, not elsewhere.

Had you not decided to treat my concern with a somewhat patronising *sigh*, I'd not have responded further.

If someone is deciding whether or not to use RG oil in one drop on a dog's collar because its way cheaper than Advantix, has "no adverse side effects" and is "natural", I think it only fair that they be given a word of caution about its lack of proven track record, don't you?

That caution seems to be distiling into "caution, may not work". I'd say people should know that. They should also know that the impact of using RG oil in combination with other tick preventatives seems to be an unknown. I think that's important.

But that's it from me. Far be it for me to rain on the parade of anyone advocating an idea for fear that dogs might suffer as result. My bad.

I personally hate the idea of dousing your dogs in insecticide to keep them safe but you have to weight up the consequences of NOT doing it before you stop.

Or to say it simply, If you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

Edited April 18, 2014 by sandgrubber

[Steve]

It is not the nature of the product, nor what volume it is made in that makes it commercial, it is the act of selling a product that makes it commercial. Just because a product is commercial or produced in larger quantities doesn't automatically mean it is not herbal or alternative and just another chemically laden product people are trying to avoid. Commercially produced simply means producing to sell whether it is a small batch or a large quantity such as an acreage of lavender and the same rules apply to both if the product is being sold. These rules don't apply if you're making products for personal use only.

The fact is selling a product whether commercially prepared, home made, sulphate based, organic, sold out of the back of a truck or at pet barn, must comply with APVMA regulations and one of those regulations is <1% essential oils unless a product is a registered veterinarian medicine and it takes a lot of time and scientific analysis and research before the product is approved. The APVMA are there to protect consumers by monitoring products on the market to ensure they are safe and they have a wealth of information available to consumers. If it is policy to use <1% I personally would not being using any more than that on my dog as natural ingredients are very powerful and if not used properly, can be very dangerous.

I am not inclined to say The European Cosmetics Directive (5th Amendment)is a load of baloney. Although I do believe both parties would be very conservative in their recommendations, however it is my opinion these recommendations apply to any eo, whethere it be TPG or otherwise. My supplier is a recommended provider of TPG eo's and used by many alternative therpists and they provide us with documentation on the TPG oils. They also charge through the nose for it (especially the rose otto)so I am a little taken aback by the assumption we don't use TPG eo, although I do agree the odds are against most people sourcing eo's as there are less than 10% of eo's that are genuinely TPG.

Alot of people simply don't have the time or resources to do their own research and although forums and google are okay, are certainly not a reliable source of information.

I think as a pet owner, it is great to think outside the box and do your own research, however there is a plethora of misinformation on the net. Scientific studies are a reliable resource if one is able to interpret the data, but simply reading an abstract of a study does not provide data and is akin to reading the backcover of a book as opposed to reading the entire book so people need to get a copy of the full study, not just the abstract.

I'm a bit tired of feeling like I have to defend myself and my business and it's not why I joined this forum. I'm not here to answer a question, followed by 'buy my product' in every post. If I wanted to promote my business, as per the forum rules would advertise in the advertising section. I enjoy and get alot out of reading the posts and sharing ideas with other dolforum members as a dog owner. Additionally if I can be of help, i'm very happy to share some of my expertise to those asking questions pertaining to green chemistry and natural alternatives for dogs.

Essential Dog I have no idea why you feel that you have had to defend yourself or your business - certainly none of my comments were about your products and in fact I never even considered whether you used one type of oil or another in what you do. If you took anything I said as some kind of a go at you or that I made an assumption that you didn't use Therapeutic essential oils that simply wasn't the case. I wasnt even anywhere near thinking of your products.

I was explaining how man has been able to replicate the aromas but not the chemical reactions the oils can produce and why I think the chemicals in essential oils may not be as important as the essential oils in their entirety.

I know that just because its commercially prepared or made in larger quantities that it doesn't mean its chemically laden and that people should avoid it - its just that some people prefer to do it themselves using only the natural occurring oils in a volume they want to so they know that - they may not always be right but a part of the populations sees things that way - and when I said that I was thinking of tick repellents.

My main area of interest and training is in botanical and herbal medicine and when I got my Diploma back in the 80's there was a emphasis on the science of plants and essential oils so there is a whole lot about the aromatherapy stuff and cosmetic data bases I sometimes challenge - such as linalools - which you introduced to the discussion and said you were restricted in how much you should have in a product - I challenged the science and the way the data base is built and restrictions are placed - that has nothing what ever to do with you or your products - neither of which I know anything what ever about.

[Erny]

I enjoy reading everyone's comments, thoughts, opinions. I enjoy when those comments, thoughts and opinions are countered. Because I know very little in terms of the nitty gritty behind natural based remedies/treatments yet am very interested in their use, I will read someone's post and think "yep .... that makes sense", because that's all I know, or it backs up to other things I've read and come to understand. But then I read someone else's countering point and/or expanded explanation and I think "ahhhh .... yep, now I can see the points being made in the information being extended to the rest of us readers" and that's how I begin to learn and extend on what I've learnt.

Your posts too, Essential Dog, are valuable, and all add up to education. Steve's posts make further points, acknowledging yours, but explaining differences. And again, it all bundles up to "education". Could I possibly ramble the nitty gritty's of it all to someone else, off the top of my head? Lol, nup. I'm not quite that proficient in all of this. But, just the reading of it all opens my eyes to the nuances .... nuances that I didn't even realise existed. I never saw it as Steve trying to make you justify your self or your business. I saw it as good, healthy, all round discussion that was very informative and educational.

Thank you, Steve, and ED, for your contributions. And to everyone else who have contributed their thoughts and opinions as these also raise points to think about and adopt or to think about and reject but keep in the back of one's mind. All valuable :).

Edited April 19, 2014 by Erny

[Yonjuro]

Very well said Erny.

[essentialdog]

Healthy discussion and debate is great, and I apologise for my frustration over the concern about some of the information presented. Natural therapies is very much a science and adheres to the same scientific principles as mainstream science through chemical analysis, experimental design & analysis. More often than not, there are ways of presenting information that can be misleading. The arguments being presented here and not backed up by any raw data (proof). They are heresay based on simply reading abstracts from full studies. The fact is essential oils are dangerous if used over 1% on a dog and there is extensive scientific data to back this up which is why these regulations are in place, especially with the rise of more natural products. I know I really appreciate when a veterinarian involves themselves in discussions on this forum and thought perhaps in the same way I could help other pet owners formulate natural products at home. I will now bow out of this discussion and try to keep scientific related discussions to scientific forums.

Edited April 20, 2014 by essentialdog

[Yonjuro]

Oh no, please don't bow out of this or conversations such as these. I am sure I am not alone in appreciating your valuable input.

[Erny]

ED - I'm sorry you feel the need to bow out. I know that Steve is very well versed in the use of natural based remedies and treatments as well, and it is very interesting to read and recognise thoughts and knowledge from numerous experts. I do take on board both components of what has already been discussed, and the merits to each both have interesting and by the sounds of it, well-founded basis.

[Salukifan]

Healthy discussion and debate is great, and I apologise for my frustration over the concern about some of the information presented. I will now bow out of this discussion and try to keep scientific related discussions to scientific forums.

The arguments being presented here and not backed up by any raw data (proof).

And the dumbing down of DOL continues. You are not alone in your frustration.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[essentialdog]

Healthy discussion and debate is great, and I apologise for my frustration over the concern about some of the information presented. I will now bow out of this discussion and try to keep scientific related discussions to scientific forums.

The arguments being presented here and not backed up by any raw data (proof).

And the dumbing down of DOL continues. You are not alone in your frustration.

Thank you Haredown Whippets.