How Far Does A Breeders Responsibility Extend?

[kelpiecuddles]

It didn't look like breeder bashing to me. A simple question as to where responsibility for one person ends and another begins. Breeders have had discussions on this site as to where their responsibilities lie, I don't see why purchasers aren't allowed to ask the same questions.

[OSoSwift]

I would say in this instance the breeder is not responsible.

If the breeder has done the appropriate testing relevant to that breed. They have taken all reasonable precautions to not breed a condition then they are not responsible. It isn't fair to hold a breeder liable for something that may or has quite likely occurred from feeding, environment etc after the pup has left and is in their new home.

As mentioned very occasionally it comes under the shit happens heading. We are dealing with living creatures and sometimes despite everyone's best effort shit happens. When that does happen I do not think it is fair to try and pin the issue as someone fault, especially when they have done everything conceivable to avoid breeding an animal with issues as far as is possible.

Edited April 13, 2014 by OSoSwift

[Wundahoo]

I agree that this is a very strange "first post" !

Perhaps the poster is fishing to see if there have been others in the litter with the same problem !!!!!

If there are littermates with the problem then YES the breeder should compensate as it is highly likely that this is a heritable or congenital issue. It's most unlikely that littermates would independently suffer the same "trauma" needed to develop the same problem. Unfortunately the OP hasnt stated what the problem is.

I am "wondering" which breed this is..... story sounds a bit too familar to me.

I know of a similar situation to the one described, except the puppy was much younger than 14-16 months when its problem was detected..... in fact it was noticed within 30 minutes of the puppy arriving at its new home !!!

The old "it's not necessarily inherited", "can be caused by trauma" comments were offered..... the trouble was that pup arrived with the problem, but had been vet checked and was supposedly normal 2 days prior to its long plane trip. This was a case of a very well known, high profile vet missing something that was extremely obvious !!! Clearly the "vet check" wasnt at all thorough.

The breeder and owner of the sire were both informed of the problem within hours of the puppy arriving, and unfortunately the new owner was called some nasty names by the owner of the sire. The inference was made that the new owner had somehow done something to "cause" the problem. Fortunately prior to its return to the breeder, the puppy was examined by two independent Board Certified specialists both of whom agreed that the problem was not minor and that it certainly existed well before the puppy was vet checked and sent to the new owner.

Edit: With this particular problem there is great variation in the condition and sometimes it doesnt appear until somewhat later. It isnt uncommon for it to be detected at around 12-18 months of age but it can also be found in very young puppies, such is the variation of presentation. In mildly affected dogs the condition can be managed medically but in severe cases surgery is required. It is possible to have a traumatic condition but in many breeds the problem is recongnised as having a strong inherited factor.

I do feel that perhaps the OP IS hunting for similarly affected littermates to the one that they have posted about !!

Edited April 13, 2014 by Wundahoo

[Christina]

I want to know

What exactly is the condition that has occurred ?

Then we can all give better opinions to the question.

[Edge]

I feel no need to defend myself and all assumptions are wrong. The details on breed and condition were deliberately left out because it is not my story to tell.

I do not own the puppy nor am I the breeder (or as initially stated any breeder). I had heard the story and thought it ridiculous that someone would seek compensation. But then I have two dogs myself both of whom have their own "issues" which I have never ever considered contacting the breeder to ask for replacement, compensation or anything. I accepted when I purchased them (some years 5 and 6 years ago) that they were both living animals and sometimes things go wrong out side the control of anyone. The first ones issues became evident in the first 12 months, the second became evident at first season.

I came here to ask the question because it appears (from reading various threads) that there seems to be some very knowledgeable, experienced owners and breeders. I wouldn't ask on any FB forum for obvious reasons.

Personally for the sake of my query condition and breed are irrelevant, my main reason for asking is I firmly believe just because it is something I wouldnt do (or would, for that matter) doesn't mean it's the right thing or the accepted thing.

Thanks to all those that responded.

[Wundahoo]

It's not really possible to give an accurate answer or opinion without knowing the full story. You cant blame us for wondering what else might be at play here as it is a very vague hypothetical for us to be dealing with. Only knowing a small part of the issue means that we cant really give you an answer...... but we can guess and that's part of the fun :D !!

The breed and the condition are both relevant and important to be able to form a true opinion and I dont really understand why you have left that part out. It isnt as though it's likely to identify the breeder or the owner or the dog in question, but it would allow us a better understanding of the situation and it could possibly throw a completely different light on things.

There are many conditions that a breeder can never be expected to be held responsible for but there are some developmental problems that even after a certain time has elapsed there could be some expectation of breeder responsibility. Some conditions are present at birth but do take time to become apparent.

I must say that it is an odd post, especially if you dont own, nor are the breeder of the dog concerned. If you have "heard" the story perhaps you have not heard the full story and so may not really know what has transpired between breeder and owner or vet and owner...... these things can sometimes significantly change the viewpoint and the balance of responsibility.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Wundahoo

[Edge]

Very valid points of which I hadn't considered.

[Salukifan]

I'll give the classic answer... "it depends".

If the condition is OCD, I'd want to know more about the trauma but there can be a congenital component also.

[Rebanne]

I feel sory for the poor breeder. If you are only going on what you heard, which is reasonably detailed i.e. pup had 2nd, more indepth health check, prior to transport; then you can bet plenty of others have heard it and lots of people are talking about this breeder, which doesn't seem deserved.

[Edge]

Totally agree with you Rebanne.

[redangel]

I think the condition is very relevant in this question should you be seeking an answer. If it is not your place, and you are asking with second hand information- it is pretty much a mute question...As you choose not to reveal facts (of condition) in order to define the situation how can an appropriate helpful answer be offered?

What is your interest here to ask? Are you seeking to impress a friend with an opinion based on research based on facts not determined? Are you seeking to purchase a puppy in the future and wish to know about what health issues that are and are not congenital? Are you seeking to know what to ask the breeder of your future purchase that you should be asking about? Are you the breeder of the pup in question?

Edited April 13, 2014 by redangel

[Kirislin]

I didn't read this as breeder bashing, just a query. Fair enough to ask. I dont think the breeder should be held responsible based on the information given, but that's just my opinion.

[JulesP]

I have a dog with a congenital issue that didn't have a good prognosis. It is pretty rare in the breed and was diagnosed at just under 12 months. I didn't expect financial contributions from the breeder. I did expect some care factor and moral support. Which I didn't get.

I didn't expect financial contributions as it isn't really something that you would test for and is in the 'shit happens' category.

[Dory the Doted One]

What I find annoying is that the general user of this forum has absolutely no idea who the OP is talking about. We can only take it on face value, as it should be taken. Then a whole bunch of people start muddying up the waters with their assumptions, presumptions, guesses and theories. So who is the one breeder bashing? Who is the one that is opening up the identity of the breeder with all their speculation? Why is it necessary to know the intimitate details of the scenario, the very details that would make it pretty obvious who the OP is talking about? Can't we take the question at face value?

[frufru]

So, what about conditions such as epilepsy which often don't occur until after 2 yrs of age. In many breeds there is an inherited component but it can also be caused by trauma and many other things.

[Wundahoo]

Simply based on the information given I dont think that an opinion can be offered at all.

We really dont know much about this when we look at the very few known facts.

The relevant points are;

Puppy was vet checked as "healthy to travel" prior to being sent on a long trip.

14 months later, dog has developed an un-named condition.

We are told that there can be heritable causes.

We are told that there can be other causes including trauma.

We dont know the breed.

We dont know what "healthy to travel" really means.

We dont know the age at which the puppy travelled.

We dont know how it travelled.

We dont know what the "condition" is.

We dont know if the "condition" was diagnosed accurately.

We dont know if there was a confirming second opinion.

We dont know what the intended use was for the dog.

We dont know if the "condition" renders the dog not fit for purpose.

we dont know how the dog was cared for/fed/exercised/housed or if these factors are relevant to the "condition".

I'm afraid that there just isnt enough information to be able to offer an opinion one way or another..... it's really not much of a question when the facts are looked at.

There are too few facts and way too many unknowns, with very little real information offered.

[Rebanne]

What I find annoying is that the general user of this forum has absolutely no idea who the OP is talking about. We can only take it on face value, as it should be taken. Then a whole bunch of people start muddying up the waters with their assumptions, presumptions, guesses and theories. So who is the one breeder bashing? Who is the one that is opening up the identity of the breeder with all their speculation? Why is it necessary to know the intimitate details of the scenario, the very details that would make it pretty obvious who the OP is talking about? Can't we take the question at face value?

you mean the unknown pup of an unknown breed with an unknown problem? But apparently, locally, lots of people are talking about the breeder and what they should or shouldn't do.

[Edge]

I'm honestly sorry that my query has caused so much angst. Appreciate the time taken by those who respond, and understand and respect what others have said. I accept that there are many variables which does make it difficult to form opinions, but like I said not my story to tell. It was a query asked out of pure personal fascination and that is all.

[persephone]

I'm honestly sorry that my query has caused so much angst. Appreciate the time taken by those who respond, and understand and respect what others have said. I accept that there are many variables which does make it difficult to form opinions, but like I said not my story to tell. It was a query asked out of pure personal fascination and that is all.

..and that's how I took it :) It is an interesting general query .

[Loving my Oldies]

I've just realised that I have a story to tell about buying from a breeder - it is over 20 years ago, so probably not really relevant as I think today people are a little more savvy and much more information on the internet ..... nothing when I was buying.

I wanted two puppies and already had a male coming when he was old enough. I found a female Maltese at 4 weeks, bought her, named her, visited once and waited impatiently until she was 8 weeks old and I could bring her home. At that time, my knowledge as to what to expect was minus zero :D :D .

So the wonderful day arrived, I collected my little pup from the breeder and took her straight to my vet (my brother, now retired, - I mention this as I was really only taking her for him to see). He gave her a very thorough examination and, BAM!!, diagnosed a problem with her heart. Because she was so very tiny, he couldn't be too sure what the problem was and we had to wait a few months for her to get a bit bigger before multitude of tests at the Sydney Uni Vet hospital.

However, it never crossed my mind to take her back, ask for some sort of compensation from the breeder, absolutely nothing. She was my dog from the moment I laid eyes upon her. It transpired that she had congenital heart disease, I advised the breeders in case they were going to breed her parents again (they weren't) and they offered to take her back with full refund. I refused - she was my dog and I adored every little hair on her :D . She died at three and a half. Naturally, I was heart broken, but I totally loved that tiny little dog, just over 2kgs wringing wet.

I guess it depends on what you want from a dog: a family pet, a companion, a show dog, breeding down the track.

ETA: At 14 months, I think an owner is pushing it to expect something from the breeder.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Dame Danny's Darling