How Far Does A Breeders Responsibility Extend?

[Edge]

..and that's how I took it :) It is an interesting general query .

Thank you.

[~Anne~]

Hi, I'm a long time reader first time poster. I would be very interested in people's oppinions on the following scenario:

Puppy purchased from pedigree breeder with everything done correctly and above board. Puppy was required to travel long distance so had additional vet check and was certified healthy tp travel with carrier. Pet arrived at new home.

Time passed (approx 14mths) puppy has developed condition. There is no evidence to suggest it is a heritable condition (although it is in other breeds), there is also evidence to suggest that cause of condition could be (amongst other things) caused by trauma. Is the owner entitled to compensation? If you were the breeder what would you do?

(background: I'm not a breeder in any way shape of form, nor do I own the puppy, just a scenario I heard about around the way and wondered what other people would consider is right).

You know I am going to call you on this. I believe this is your pup. You bought it from another state and it was flown? to you. It now has something and you are trying to see if the transport could have caused damage (HD?) "Owner" chose to buy a pup and get it transported, by car, rail, plane. Only "owners" word that pup has been correctly cared for since. Strange first post if pup is not yours and there have been plenty of stories about "what if" where it turned out the poster was talking about their very own dog.

It seems, from later posts, you are wrong.

You are too sensitive to breeder bashing and you have jumped a gun perhaps in this thread.

I don't see any breeder bashing. Quite the opposite, I took it that the op may have been a breeder talking about an issue that another breeder was experiencing. I too, it seems, am wrong. It goes to show how assumptions are pretty useless sometimes.

Edited April 13, 2014 by ~Anne~

[Edge]

I always thought that no matter what you want a dog for there is the same risk involved and the same bond formed.

Would intended use really make a difference?

I was considering breeding with one of my girls (via all the proper channels) but as I said previously she had issues with her first season which resulted in desexing, putting an end to that. My intention played no bearing on wether I went back to the breeder (pedigree) I just accepted.

[Loving my Oldies]

Would intended use really make a difference?

I think in some instances, yes. Not everyone sees a dog as a lovely creature to love - some may want to breed and make their fortune :D :D and others may want to take the show world by storm. :laugh: :laugh:

[sandgrubber]

I'm honestly sorry that my query has caused so much angst. Appreciate the time taken by those who respond, and understand and respect what others have said. I accept that there are many variables which does make it difficult to form opinions, but like I said not my story to tell. It was a query asked out of pure personal fascination and that is all

.

No need to apologize. Sometimes some of us are quarrelsome, and there are a lot of people who, for good reason, are defensive about breeder bashing. The forum has had its share of trolls, and they are annoying.

One factor I haven't heard anyone raise is the buyer's contract. If the breeder offered a guarantee on the pup's health to a certain age, that prevails. If not, some breeders will still accept responsibility even though they don't have to. For example, someone once bought a pup from me who developed late onset deafness, a condition rare in Labradors, but a similar condition did appear in a couple other pups with the same sire (I don't own the sire). Not clear when the condition developed. The pup may have been deaf for many months before it was diagnosed at two years. I gave them another dog, one I was going to rehome, to serve as a 'hearing ear' companion for the deaf dog;This was purely voluntary; it worked out well and I felt good about it. They were very good owners, and I was glad to be able to help them.

Edited April 13, 2014 by sandgrubber

[dancinbcs]

Without knowing the condition it is impossible to comment. Breed is irrelevant. For any condition that can be tested for and completely avoided, breeders are liable if they do not do the testing. Age is irrelevant as many inherited conditions do not show up until later. CL in BCs is not evident until at least 16 months but is an autosomal recessive inherited condition. Before the test became available breeders would refund for any affected dog as but had no idea where it was likely to show up. All buyers were warned that CL could turn up in any BC and no one could guarantee against it. Now the DNA test makes it completely avoidable.

In any condition that is part inherited and part environmental, all the breeder can do is any relevant tests that reduce the risk but they can never guarantee that a dog will not be affected as they have no control over the environment it is raised in. If they do test and then breed with dogs with bad test results, then they are liable.

So the main thing is the condition and what testing is available to prevent it.

[Kirislin]

I'm honestly sorry that my query has caused so much angst. Appreciate the time taken by those who respond, and understand and respect what others have said. I accept that there are many variables which does make it difficult to form opinions, but like I said not my story to tell. It was a query asked out of pure personal fascination and that is all.

that's how I read it. It's completely anonymous.

[Edge]

Thanks sandgrubber. Certainly not a troll, just never had a question worthy of posting prior to this occassion.

I've read good things and bad about breeding contracts - but had never considered breeders giving health gaurentees to certain ages. That concept seems a bit weird to me given there are so many variables in a puppies life once it leaves the care of the breeder. But again another point I hadn't considered

[Jed]

I have a dog with a congenital issue that didn't have a good prognosis. It is pretty rare in the breed and was diagnosed at just under 12 months. I didn't expect financial contributions from the breeder. I did expect some care factor and moral support. Which I didn't get.

I didn't expect financial contributions as it isn't really something that you would test for and is in the 'shit happens' category.

Congenital or hereditary? There is a big difference.

And I do think it would have been better if the breeder had been communicative.

As to the OP - impossible to give an opinion.

[JulesP]

I have a dog with a congenital issue that didn't have a good prognosis. It is pretty rare in the breed and was diagnosed at just under 12 months. I didn't expect financial contributions from the breeder. I did expect some care factor and moral support. Which I didn't get.

I didn't expect financial contributions as it isn't really something that you would test for and is in the 'shit happens' category.

Congenital or hereditary? There is a big difference.

And I do think it would have been better if the breeder had been communicative.

As to the OP - impossible to give an opinion.

I know it is congenital which is why I wrote congenital.

In some breeds it would be considered hereditary. It is unclear whether that is the case in my breed. Affected dogs should not be bred from though and the parents should not be bred again. Fairly sure the breeder did repeat the mating.

[Mystiqview]

Hi, I'm a long time reader first time poster. I would be very interested in people's oppinions on the following scenario:

Puppy purchased from pedigree breeder with everything done correctly and above board. Puppy was required to travel long distance so had additional vet check and was certified healthy tp travel with carrier. Pet arrived at new home.

Time passed (approx 14mths) puppy has developed condition. There is no evidence to suggest it is a heritable condition (although it is in other breeds), there is also evidence to suggest that cause of condition could be (amongst other things) caused by trauma. Is the owner entitled to compensation? If you were the breeder what would you do?

(background: I'm not a breeder in any way shape of form, nor do I own the puppy, just a scenario I heard about around the way and wondered what other people would consider is right).

In this scenario- too many ifs buts and maybes.

Presuming the pup left the breeder at 8-9 weeks. The certification at 8 weeks for travel, is basically, the dog is in good physical condition not suffering from an infection, dehydration, has good weight or any other similar ailments. Not much more you can really certify at that age, unless something is obvious.

I would suspect any trauma caused by the travel would be evident upon arrival at the new home of within the coming days/week upon arrival.

There are at least one if not two more vet visits for vaccinations at 12 and 16 weeks. Going on a "normal scale". Possibly another vet visit at 6 months or so for desexing. Then the 12 month vaccination. So my first question was why was it not picked up by the owner/vet during one of these visits.

Depends on what the condition is too? If it is something like hip/elbow or shoulder displacia, it can be in all breeds large or small. There can be a hereditary predisposal to the condition, or it can also be caused from environmental factors such as bad diet, too much stress on joints at a young age, injury or a combination of everything. OCD of the shoulder commonly is seen around 8-9 months.

Many vets also like to quickly say HD as soon as they find out the dog is pedigree. If this is the case, I would get a second opinion from a trusted vet. Sometimes I have seen OCD/ED/HD claimed too easily by some vets or so called vet specialists when it is soft tissue injury from a young dog being stupid and has just strained a muscle or tendon and not HD. ( I had OCD claimed by a so called vet specialist on a bitch I bought who had her foot caught in a fence. A second and third opinion by different specialists and some more tests showed only soft tissue damage. That bitch is now 7 years old and does not have OCD) the first vet specialist is know to love diagnosing OCD in pedigree dogs.

Something that is age or maturity related, you would not know until the dog reached that point. No way you could tell in an 8-12 week old pup.

Dogs with perfect hip scores can produce hip displastic pups. Dogs bred with high hips scores do run a higher risk of producing pups with high hip scores, but they can also produce offspring with low hip scores. Sporting dogs who start intensive training early can get elbow/hip displacia by being put into work too early and severely before they finish growing. Dogs who live in high rise houses and always jump the bottom steps and turn sharply are a higher risk of injury than a dog who lives in a house without steps.

If it is something rare in the breed, and not commonly seen, it is just bad luck. Especially if there is no health test or preventative to attempt to breed against that trait from showing. I would not hold the breeder at fault. If it is something common in the breed and there are tests and they chose to breed without testing for it, then certainly I would hold the breeder responsible. I would also partly hold the puppy buyer responsible if they knew about the potential condition/risk and chose to go ahead with the purchase knowing the parents were tested. ( I would also expect puppy buyer to research their potential breed thorough before buying a pup, and I would also expect the breeder to inform puppy buyers the potential breed specific problems of that breed, whether found in their lines or not).

Without more specifics of what the breed or condition is, how can you expect anyone to really answer your question?

[Guest hankodie]

I have a dog with a congenital issue that didn't have a good prognosis. It is pretty rare in the breed and was diagnosed at just under 12 months. I didn't expect financial contributions from the breeder. I did expect some care factor and moral support. Which I didn't get.

I didn't expect financial contributions as it isn't really something that you would test for and is in the 'shit happens' category.

Jules it always amazes me how similar our experiences are with our dogs! Down to the lack of care factor from the breeder and everything.

My dog has the same condition Jules dog has. And no, I didn't expect any financial contributions either as it is quite rare and not something you can really test for (as far as I know anyway).

[JulesP]

I have a dog with a congenital issue that didn't have a good prognosis. It is pretty rare in the breed and was diagnosed at just under 12 months. I didn't expect financial contributions from the breeder. I did expect some care factor and moral support. Which I didn't get.

I didn't expect financial contributions as it isn't really something that you would test for and is in the 'shit happens' category.

Jules it always amazes me how similar our experiences are with our dogs! Down to the lack of care factor from the breeder and everything.

My dog has the same condition Jules dog has. And no, I didn't expect any financial contributions either as it is quite rare and not something you can really test for (as far as I know anyway).

It does seem to be a hereditary problem in your breed? Googling shows lots of cases.

Interesting to this thread I found a breeder guarantee (US Frenchie breeder) for liver shunts. They say they will give a replacement puppy or money up to the price of the puppy if the condition is diagnosed under 12 months.

[alpha bet]

Whether we like it or not - the law MUST have a way of defining what a dog actually is and what the value might be.... hence they determine that a dog is property.... and at the point of sale there is a price... this is the value of the property.....

The extent of the liability is that value... otherwise no one would want to ever breed a litter because if vet fees could be claimed back on the breeder or a value for pain and suffering we could never afford insurance to cover us.

The interesting thing is that it is very rare to hear of anyone trying to claim back from pet shops or backyard breeders... instead they seem more prepared to put pressure on the registered breeder.

Breeders need to take a stand and not just refund because someone is unhappy. If they have a claim due to HEREDITARY issues or health defect from the breeders home then return the pup to get a refund. Otherwise they should accept they want to keep the pup/dog and bear the cost.

In the last 6.5 years I have had 52 pups, know where they all live and EVERY DOG gets a xmas card every year. Last Sunday we held our Annual Picnic and 28 of these dogs and families came up for the afternoon. This is my way to keep a track of everyone but also to support the families. I am sure other breeders do plenty of stuff to support their families and we get nothing for this but still have to deal with the crap from councils, dept of primary industry and at times the welfare groups wanting to critizise.

end of rant....

[Guest hankodie]

I have a dog with a congenital issue that didn't have a good prognosis. It is pretty rare in the breed and was diagnosed at just under 12 months. I didn't expect financial contributions from the breeder. I did expect some care factor and moral support. Which I didn't get.

I didn't expect financial contributions as it isn't really something that you would test for and is in the 'shit happens' category.

Jules it always amazes me how similar our experiences are with our dogs! Down to the lack of care factor from the breeder and everything.

My dog has the same condition Jules dog has. And no, I didn't expect any financial contributions either as it is quite rare and not something you can really test for (as far as I know anyway).

It does seem to be a hereditary problem in your breed? Googling shows lots of cases.

Interesting to this thread I found a breeder guarantee (US Frenchie breeder) for liver shunts. They say they will give a replacement puppy or money up to the price of the puppy if the condition is diagnosed under 12 months.

I think the hereditary factor is still undetermined though I also have noticed that I'm reading more and more about it in the breed. Perhaps it might be due to bad breeding practices, especially since their popularity has exploded in recent years?

I know that there's a high occurrence of LS in pugs and I think there's one or two breeds (Yorkie and Maltese maybe?) where common breeding practices in the US include testing the bile acids of the parents before mating them. But as you know that's not enough to determine for certain whether or not the offspring will end up with LS.

[Edge]

Thanks for all the responses. As I have said previously I appreciate all oppinions provided based on what info I felt I could give.

I think the point made about applying pressure to pedigree breeders regarding compensation is a very interesting one, as well as the possibility that vets may form oppinions based on pedigree breeding or not.

There is a wealth of information on the net from many varied sources, when reading multiple articles it can be quite confusing if not down right contradictory. Particularly when it comes to the question of hereditary, congenital, or otherwise.

I personally had no idea how many conditions were heriditry in many breeds until I started looking for info on this particular case.

Its also interesting to find from a variety of personal experience blogs from a variety of breeders that there is no hard and fast rules in regard to refunds etc (i personally think that there a very few cases that would warrant refund - but that's easy for me to have an opinion because I'm not a breeder).

Having previously considered breeding previously I had never considered the mine field of dramas breeders experience - many well beyond their control. It has certainly given me a huge serving of food for thought.

[ashaflynn]

Hi, I'm a long time reader first time poster. I would be very interested in people's oppinions on the following scenario:

Puppy purchased from pedigree breeder with everything done correctly and above board. Puppy was required to travel long distance so had additional vet check and was certified healthy tp travel with carrier. Pet arrived at new home.

Time passed (approx 14mths) puppy has developed condition. There is no evidence to suggest it is a heritable condition (although it is in other breeds), there is also evidence to suggest that cause of condition could be (amongst other things) caused by trauma. Is the owner entitled to compensation? If you were the breeder what would you do?

(background: I'm not a breeder in any way shape of form, nor do I own the puppy, just a scenario I heard about around the way and wondered what other people would consider is right).

In this scenario- too many ifs buts and maybes.

Presuming the pup left the breeder at 8-9 weeks. The certification at 8 weeks for travel, is basically, the dog is in good physical condition not suffering from an infection, dehydration, has good weight or any other similar ailments. Not much more you can really certify at that age, unless something is obvious.

I would suspect any trauma caused by the travel would be evident upon arrival at the new home of within the coming days/week upon arrival.

There are at least one if not two more vet visits for vaccinations at 12 and 16 weeks. Going on a "normal scale". Possibly another vet visit at 6 months or so for desexing. Then the 12 month vaccination. So my first question was why was it not picked up by the owner/vet during one of these visits.

Depends on what the condition is too? If it is something like hip/elbow or shoulder displacia, it can be in all breeds large or small. There can be a hereditary predisposal to the condition, or it can also be caused from environmental factors such as bad diet, too much stress on joints at a young age, injury or a combination of everything. OCD of the shoulder commonly is seen around 8-9 months.

Many vets also like to quickly say HD as soon as they find out the dog is pedigree. If this is the case, I would get a second opinion from a trusted vet. Sometimes I have seen OCD/ED/HD claimed too easily by some vets or so called vet specialists when it is soft tissue injury from a young dog being stupid and has just strained a muscle or tendon and not HD. ( I had OCD claimed by a so called vet specialist on a bitch I bought who had her foot caught in a fence. A second and third opinion by different specialists and some more tests showed only soft tissue damage. That bitch is now 7 years old and does not have OCD) the first vet specialist is know to love diagnosing OCD in pedigree dogs.

Something that is age or maturity related, you would not know until the dog reached that point. No way you could tell in an 8-12 week old pup.

Dogs with perfect hip scores can produce hip displastic pups. Dogs bred with high hips scores do run a higher risk of producing pups with high hip scores, but they can also produce offspring with low hip scores. Sporting dogs who start intensive training early can get elbow/hip displacia by being put into work too early and severely before they finish growing. Dogs who live in high rise houses and always jump the bottom steps and turn sharply are a higher risk of injury than a dog who lives in a house without steps.

If it is something rare in the breed, and not commonly seen, it is just bad luck. Especially if there is no health test or preventative to attempt to breed against that trait from showing. I would not hold the breeder at fault. If it is something common in the breed and there are tests and they chose to breed without testing for it, then certainly I would hold the breeder responsible. I would also partly hold the puppy buyer responsible if they knew about the potential condition/risk and chose to go ahead with the purchase knowing the parents were tested. ( I would also expect puppy buyer to research their potential breed thorough before buying a pup, and I would also expect the breeder to inform puppy buyers the potential breed specific problems of that breed, whether found in their lines or not).

Without more specifics of what the breed or condition is, how can you expect anyone to really answer your question?