Help Needed Hand Raising Newborn Litter

[Loving my Oldies]

Oh, that is such good news, Airedaler. You must be very happy - your niece as well.

Hopefully no setbacks and some beautiful dogs will be making their ways out into the world before too long.

[persephone]

:) good update!

[Mystiqview]

Keep a close eye on them. If there is any sign of a possible infection, get them to vet ASAP, I have had pups go down and die within 6 hours with infection, and it spreads quickly from one pup to the next. Next thing you know, you have half the litter dead with septicaemia. The extremities will start to turn blue and they will be quite cool if not cold to the touch.

Get some liquid glucose on your finger and put that in their mouth to get sugars up.

Second wombaroo feeding. It is much fattier than divetalec and when you mix it you will see fat floating once it cools. I have found a baby bottle with a slow teat works better than pet ones. I have borders. My last three litters from different two bitches have all been c-sect. Fortunately I did not have a bitch refuse the pups. It can be common for mixture to give the pups the runs, so keep an eye on it. You may want to make it less rich and fiddle the ratio slightly to something that works.

Uht goats milk is also pretty good and can be bought at the supermarket and is (until opened) sterilised. You can also buy colostrum in a powder and protexin powder to mix into the formula.

Keep trying to put one or two pups at a time onto the bitch at a time and keep a close eye on them. It is common for new mums after a c-sect to reject the pups, but as Jed has suggested, you can bring some around slowly.

Hope all goes well for your friend. She will probably need a hand in a few days. At least so she can have a few hours sleep.

[tdierikx]

I found that the 3-6 month old rated human teats worked best for my Rotti pups years ago - dogs' natural teats have somewhat faster flow than humans, and the 3 month old rated human teats seem to be the closest to giving that flow. I found that they preferred the silicone teats that were the "natural" shape as well.

T.

[VizslaMomma]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions which have been passed on.

An update on the situation.

The Vet has checked the pups over and said they are all fine. The owners have changed from a small "animal feeding bottle" to a normal baby bottle (these are rotty pups so not small) and newborn teat and have also changed to goat milk with some natural yoghurt added. The pups are much more content and the diarrhoea has cleared up and they are now pretty much normal poos. All pups have gained a reasonable amount albeit perhaps not an ideal amount in the first week.

All in all this is a fairly positive outcome considering the possibilities and while they may not be totally out of the woods yet I think they have turned the corner.

Thanks again.

Chuffed to read this update.

That change of food will help no end. Back in the ( really old days) my Grandma always used goats milk with natural yoghurt if she had to hand rear boxers.

Paws crossed for all to settle

[Nekhbet]

I hope they're not even considering breeding that bitch ever again with the way she behaved. I'd watch the daughters as well.

[Jed]

Nekhbet, the bitch may not be a problem.

There might be concern with some breeds, but rejection of the pups is not uncommon after ceasarians in most breeds.

I think most of mine have not welcomed the pups - it seems to take them a bit of time to get their heads around the situation. Then, next whelping, they are switched on, and do a great job.

I wouldn't dream of leaving a bitch after a caesarian with pups for at least 24 hours, maybe 48!! No matter how sweet and mild she seemed.

You need some experience and patience to get a caesared bitch who doesn't understand about the pups to accept them, and I would never not breed with a bitch who rejected a first litter. It is also very easy, if you don't have a lot of experience, and your vet is ditto, to give up and hand feed the pups, when the bitch would have done it, if you had the knowledge and expertise to put and keep the pups on her. :)

And I am not criticising the breeder. This is a difficult situation all round, and very difficult for a novice breeder.

Some bitches wake up and say "Well, where are my lovely children?" and others wake up and say "What the HELL are those funny looking smelly things making all that noise?" Having pups is a good and natural thing for bitches ; having a caesarian isn't.

[Airedaler]

I hope they're not even considering breeding that bitch ever again with the way she behaved. I'd watch the daughters as well.

The bitch was desexed at the time of the Caesar.

[Nekhbet]

There might be concern with some breeds, but rejection of the pups is not uncommon after ceasarians in most breeds.

Rejection is one thing, a bitch that kills pups is another. Maybe I've just learned from people who put stricter parameters on what they find acceptable in a breeding bitch.

[Jed]

There might be concern with some breeds, but rejection of the pups is not uncommon after ceasarians in most breeds.

Rejection is one thing, a bitch that kills pups is another. Maybe I've just learned from people who put stricter parameters on what they find acceptable in a breeding bitch.

And maybe those people didn't have a real appreciation of the true situation, and acted too soon. Who knows? Some breeds are renowned for killing their pups, and I would certainly be wary of a member of this breed.

However, caesarians + low calcium = stress problems, one of which can be killing the pups. Be a shame to throw away a good bitch because the breeder thinks there is a problem.

Important to know why this is happening. And extremely difficult for a first time breeder to cope with this. Can also be very difficult for vets to cope as well. Half them don't know about this either

Supervision and calcium, as previously mentioned, is important. If the bitch still wanted to bite them in a week, I would rethink the situation, and yes, would not breed with the bitch again, but if she did it for the first few days, it could be simply due to stress, so I would try for a resolution first.

[Steve]

There might be concern with some breeds, but rejection of the pups is not uncommon after ceasarians in most breeds.

Rejection is one thing, a bitch that kills pups is another. Maybe I've just learned from people who put stricter parameters on what they find acceptable in a breeding bitch.

I had a beagle bitch many years ago who had a C section and when we showed her the first pup when she woke up she snapped and ate its head off - right there in a heart beat right out of my hand. Taught me heaps real quick and its never happened before or since and she went on to raise her litter.

i dont think any of us find it acceptable but when you have certain conditions it happens and is not always unforgiveable.

[tdierikx]

I hope they're not even considering breeding that bitch ever again with the way she behaved. I'd watch the daughters as well.

The bitch was desexed at the time of the Caesar.

May I ask why?

T.

[persephone]

I have seen bitches wake up ..and snap , killing/injuring pups - not out of aggression , but out of confusion /pain, and the obvious inability of newborns to react to the growl/snap . I have done the smearing of birth fluids on pups ..muzzling bitch ..covering pups with butter and holding them for bitch to lick ..holding bitch and waiting for hormones to kick in as pups knead/suckle ( and yes, this works with bitches speyed at the time of birth, too!)

[Airedaler]

The bitch was desexed at the time of the Caesar.

May I ask why?

T.

[/quote

The bitch had strictures in the uterus and the Vet said she would never produce normally. So the owners decided that it was the best thing for the bitch.

[Mystiqview]

The bitch was desexed at the time of the Caesar.

May I ask why?

T.

The bitch had strictures in the uterus and the Vet said she would never produce normally. So the owners decided that it was the best thing for the bitch.

I can appreciate this. I had a bitch who had complete uterin inertia on her first litter and needed a C-sect. The vet emergency tried two half shot of Oxy, one muscular an done IV to encourage contractions and get it to happen natually to no avail. They advised, if I had bred her again, it would more than likely happen again. Not fair on the bitch, not fair on the pups so she was later desexed.

I know others who would have bred her again no qualms and gone through another C-sect, just to produce a litter. I was told by a few to let her go again. To really what avail?

I had another bitch kill one puppy during whelping on her fist litter. She pushed out the first four, rested a bit, so put the pups on her. All was good, walked to the other side of the counter to pour water in my coffee cup, when I saw her contracting again. Went to move the pups out of the box to give her room to only find three pups. This was the only time she did this. She went onto raise the remaining litter of 11 perfectly fine. (13 pups for a border collie on her fist litter is one damn large litter - one pup was died a few days later, was very small to begin with). She went onto produce three more litters perfectly fine, although the last two required C-sections. She was desexed on the table at the last litter.

[persephone]

It doesn't take much to kill a newborn blob ..one snap which unintentionally connects will do it ... 11 BC puppies :D

Edited April 11, 2014 by persephone

[Mystiqview]

It doesn't take much to kill a newborn blob ..one snap which unintentionally connects will do it ... 11 BC puppies :D

That one - we think she actually ate it - left no trace as I had cleaned the soiled paper up from the last pup born. There was no sign of it anywhere. At first, we even were wondering if we counted right.

[persephone]

It doesn't take much to kill a newborn blob ..one snap which unintentionally connects will do it ... 11 BC puppies :D

That one - we think she actually ate it - left no trace as I had cleaned the soiled paper up from the last pup born. There was no sign of it anywhere. At first, we even were wondering if we counted right.

not hard to do in the confusion , either...glad you had so many healthy ones :)

[Mystiqview]

Who knows why she ate it. It could of had a problem, it could of been mistaken for a placenta, or she was stressed. She was watched carefully after that, but no signs of any aggression.

If anything she was a I will do what I absolutely have to do and no more kind of mother. She would clean and feed them, but if they were asleep and content she was out of the box with the people.

[persephone]

Who knows why she ate it. It could of had a problem, it could of been mistaken for a placenta, or she was stressed. She was watched carefully after that, but no signs of any aggression.

If anything she was a I will do what I absolutely have to do and no more kind of mother. She would clean and feed them, but if they were asleep and content she was out of the box with the people.

Mystiq- I call them "Career mums" they will do it - but cannot wait to get back to what they were doing ;)