Help Needed Hand Raising Newborn Litter

[Airedaler]

Hi Everyone,

I'm after some suggestions from people who have hand raised a litter.

Quick background. My niece had a litter of pups last week, delivered by caesarean. Mum totally rejected the pups and was in fact aggressive to them to the extent of killing one and attempting to do further harm when put back with the pups. The bitch has been totally removed from the litter now and they are being fed on divetlac as per the Vet's suggestion.

In 35 years of breeding I was fortunate enough to only need to do one Caesar and that was for one pup after 8 in the litter were born and Mum took over as usual so I have no experience about the above situation.

The pups have now developed diarrhoea and I'm at a loss to know what to advise. Pups are 6 days old. One died yesterday after drinking less and less and started bleeding from the nose and anus.

The instructions on the divetlac tin have been followed. I never used anything but goat milk to raise (supplement) pups and never had any problems with diarrhoea.

Any suggestions would be welcome.

My niece lives in a rural area and is not readily able to pop down to the supermarket to pick up supplies.

[Kirislin]

I'd be getting them to a vet. I had a litter that developed diarrhoea at 7 days and very nearly died because it took a few days to diagnose that they had giardia. The problem with diarrhoea is that they become dehydrated and one of the first things to happen is that the loose the sucking reflex, so unless they're given fluids, in my puppies case subcutaneously, they starve to death.

The bleeding from the nos and anus though sounds very serious indeed.

[oakway]

Vet straight away !!!!!. :)

[Airedaler]

Sorry I should have clarified that going to the Vet immediately was my suggestion as well as a priority. But was also looking for feeding advise for follow on.

[Kirislin]

Sorry I should have clarified that going to the Vet immediately was my suggestion as well as a priority. But was also looking for feeding advise for follow on.

she might not be able to feed them though. If they've become dehydrated they wont even try to suckle, they'll just weaken and die, that is what nearly happend to my puppies. She needs to get fluids into them and also work out why they've got the runs and treat it otherwise they will die.

[Airedaler]

Sorry I should have clarified that going to the Vet immediately was my suggestion as well as a priority. But was also looking for feeding advise for follow on.

she might not be able to feed them though. If they've become dehydrated they wont even try to suckle, they'll just weaken and die, that is what nearly happend to my puppies. She needs to get fluids into them and also work out why they've got the runs and treat it otherwise they will die.

I totally agree. Unfortunately all I can do is pass on the information and advise and hope they take it. I figure that if there is one that has an infection and this was what caused the bleeding then IMO there is a fair bet that there is/will be a problem with the others or some of them at least. The pups are suckling so that at least is a positive. Have emphasised that they should go to the Vet or at least ring the Vet would be a start.

[persephone]

artyificial feeding may be very tricky with these --- if they have an infection of some sort , they may not be able to tolerate certain things ..they may also need tube feeding , as well as drugs etc .

Hope they go OK at the vets .

The bleeding does sound ominous ... is there to be an autopsy?

[VizslaMomma]

Sorry I should have clarified that going to the Vet immediately was my suggestion as well as a priority. But was also looking for feeding advise for follow on.

she might not be able to feed them though. If they've become dehydrated they wont even try to suckle, they'll just weaken and die, that is what nearly happend to my puppies. She needs to get fluids into them and also work out why they've got the runs and treat it otherwise they will die.

I totally agree. Unfortunately all I can do is pass on the information and advise and hope they take it. I figure that if there is one that has an infection and this was what caused the bleeding then IMO there is a fair bet that there is/will be a problem with the others or some of them at least. The pups are suckling so that at least is a positive. Have emphasised that they should go to the Vet or at least ring the Vet would be a start.

Maybe ask for a Vet to come to the house because of the perils of transporting newbies? So sad to hear.

[Kirislin]

from what you've said, if she doesn't get immediate veterinary attention for them I dont like their chances of survival.

[Airedaler]

artyificial feeding may be very tricky with these --- if they have an infection of some sort , they may not be able to tolerate certain things ..they may also need tube feeding , as well as drugs etc .

Hope they go OK at the vets .

The bleeding does sound ominous ... is there to be an autopsy?

I just hope they get to the Vet or him to them. Unfortunately there will not be an autopsy done. That may have told them what they were dealing with but it is too late now.

[Airedaler]

from what you've said, if she doesn't get immediate veterinary attention for them I dont like their chances of survival.

As I said Kirislin, I can only advise, it is up to the owners to decide whether to take that advice or not. Most of the advise I have given has been taken but this lot seems to be only selectively taken on board.

[Loving my Oldies]

from what you've said, if she doesn't get immediate veterinary attention for them I dont like their chances of survival.

As I said Kirislin, I can only advise, it is up to the owners to decide whether to take that advice or not. Most of the advise I have given has been taken but this lot seems to be only selectively taken on board.

How sad for everyone involved: humans, mum and pups.

Maybe it is just all too much for your niece. The stress of caesarian, mum killng one of the pups, then another one dying. It is all pretty intense, both physically and emotionally.

Your niece may not be up to the fight, particularly with the risk that she may lose them all.

I'm not a breeder, never have been, but when I read some of these stories, I realise how difficult it can be and how it can often be coupled with a lot of sorrow.

[persephone]

it would be awful to be stuck with a litter ..bitch anti- motherhood because of her surgery etc ..then puppies dying from various things .made worse by distance and isolation

[kelpiecuddles]

Do you think it's an issue of dollars? I'm wondering whether having spent all that money on ceasar, etc, maybe she's just seeing all the moeny going in to it and it's getting on top of her? Maybe point out that if she doesn't get the pups treated then all that money spent to get them out safely, etc will have been for naught if they die from a treatable illness. I know it's a very pragmatic way to think of it and not how we here would like to but for many that is a reality that they think of.

[Airedaler]

Do you think it's an issue of dollars? I'm wondering whether having spent all that money on ceasar, etc, maybe she's just seeing all the moeny going in to it and it's getting on top of her? Maybe point out that if she doesn't get the pups treated then all that money spent to get them out safely, etc will have been for naught if they die from a treatable illness. I know it's a very pragmatic way to think of it and not how we here would like to but for many that is a reality that they think of.

I think they genuinely want to do the right thing and want the best for the pups. No way did they expect to come across these problems - as none of us do. BUT it is a huge learning curve and may be it will make them realise it is not all a bed of roses. Money may not be abundant but I don't think that would stop them spending what was necessary for the good of the bitch and the pups. It is easy for us breeders in the populated areas to contact the Vet if and when needed but possibly not so easy for those in more isolated areas. And in my case at least I had a relationship with the Vet who was advised when a litter was due and we talked about what to expect and when to contact etc. Even after 35 years I did that. And I also had the benefit of having my original breeder and several others available to help if needed.

[Steve]

They should see a vet - barring that they need to be very careful not to over feed them - the milk instructions will tell them to feed them X amount X times per day but its better if they can break the amounts into 2 hourly feeds - so smaller amounts more often for the first two weeks then each time feed a little more less often.

Bleeding as you described can be caused by over feeding. They also need some pro-biotics [protexin, inner health etc ] and if they were my pups Id be adding a quarter of a mil of Aloe Vera Juice per pup per day and slippery elm would be a good too.

Taking the pup's temps and checking for dehydration several times per day wouldn't hurt either and will red light infection etc.

[Airedaler]

They should see a vet - barring that they need to be very careful not to over feed them - the milk instructions will tell them to feed them X amount X times per day but its better if they can break the amounts into 2 hourly feeds - so smaller amounts more often for the first two weeks then each time feed a little more less often.

Bleeding as you described can be caused by over feeding. They also need some pro-biotics [protexin, inner health etc ] and if they were my pups Id be adding a quarter of a mil of Aloe Vera Juice per pup per day and slippery elm would be a good too.

Taking the pup's temps and checking for dehydration several times per day wouldn't hurt either and will red light infection etc.

Thanks Steve, I wondered about slippery elm but was not sure if it was OK for newborns. Will pass on your suggestion.

[mixeduppup]

They sound like they need to go to a vet and get proper veterinary care.

Edited April 6, 2014 by mixeduppup

[Jed]

Take the pups to the vet

Change feed for them to Wombaroo (can order over the net). Wombaroo Puppy Milk is dog specific, Divetelact is not specific, and imho, not as good. Change from Divetelact gradually. It is also possible to buy frozen colostrum ... it appears they have not had any from the mother, and it is difficult to get them to thrive without it. Science seems to have proven the colostrum can be fed after the first couple of days with good effect.

Get vet to show how to tube feed. Ask how often (4 hourly is usually enough)

If not feed 2 hourly. Feed daily amount shown on tin/box but 2 hourly instead of 3 - 4

If pups are sick now; no milk. Keep whelping box + 24 degrees. Give boiled (and cooled) water with a little glucose.

Give the bitch liquid calcium.

Bitches who have had caesarians often have no idea what has happened. They went to sleep and woke up, their stomachs hurt, and they are surrounded by little rat like things which are attacking their mammaries. This is more likely to happen with a first litter

So the bitch is stressed. Liquid calcium can reduce stress.

If possible, put pups on bitch, prevent bitch hurting them, soothe and encourage bitch. Continue to do this every few hours. Take pups away when they have finished drinking. Keep giving calcium to bitch. This may encourage bitch to accept them, which will make a life a lot easier - and the hormones the bitch produces will encourage her milk to come down, and help to keep her calmer.

Mostly they will then accept pups. No idea what breed, some are better than others.

Ensure a warm damp cloth etc is used to wipe pups' anus and penis or vulva to encourage urination and defecation after each feed. They can't do it by themselves.

Pull up skin on the back of neck to check dehydration -- note it wont return immediately in new borns, but it should return to flat without too much delay.

Good luck!!

Incidentally, I am not a great fan of giving too many extras when hand feeding pups. I have found mine do ok without, and there are so many things you CAN feed it is entirely possible to overload their systems, and give them more problems, in my opinion.

It seems the vet is not over- experienced with bitches and whelps, and it might be better to try to borrow a good book from the library or check on the internet for better advice. Not saying he is not a good vet, but vets are not breeders.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Jed

[Airedaler]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions which have been passed on.

An update on the situation.

The Vet has checked the pups over and said they are all fine. The owners have changed from a small "animal feeding bottle" to a normal baby bottle (these are rotty pups so not small) and newborn teat and have also changed to goat milk with some natural yoghurt added. The pups are much more content and the diarrhoea has cleared up and they are now pretty much normal poos. All pups have gained a reasonable amount albeit perhaps not an ideal amount in the first week.

All in all this is a fairly positive outcome considering the possibilities and while they may not be totally out of the woods yet I think they have turned the corner.

Thanks again.