Managing Entire Male And Female

[Cleo's Corgwyn]

I recently lost my older girl, who had been desexed since she was young, leaving my 18 month old boy alone and missing the company. I've now been offered an older puppy bitch, who sounds ideal, but I've never had to manage entire dogs before, and I'm interested in how others manage. My boy is nearly finished his show title, so probably only needs to remain entire for a few more months, but how can I best manage it if the girl comes into season before then? I don't have a problem with crating, and have solid plastic and wire crates here, but I don't have dog runs, or anything, just a suburban yard.

Is it worth looking into Suprelorin, or similar for my boy, and is that even allowed in the show ring?

Advice and personal experience welcome.

[dancinbcs]

I always had one inside and one outside with them swapping over or crated one or both. Housing arrangements may also depend on how much mess the bitch makes. Mine hardly made any mess and washable throws over the furniture were all that was needed but some bitches with more discharge need to be kept in an easily washed area or crated. Sometimes the dogs are better kept as far away as possible and others are better if they can either lie next to the crate the bitch is in or be crated next to her. Some dogs whine and carry on, not eating, etc and others are fine. They are all different and you do whatever works best with your male. As you get more experience you get to work out how the dog reacts at which part of the season and with mine I could pick the key days and only separated them for about 4 days but if you are not used to the process, separation for the whole season , until the dog is no longer interested, is the safest option. While most bitches are in season for 3 weeks that can vary from 2-4 weeks and even longer sometimes. They can be ready to mate for a few days, any time from day 3 to day 27. Again they are all different and do not read the books that say they should be ready to mate on days 10-12.

[Sandra777]

What sized dogs - the logistics of seperating two Chihuahuas is a bit different to keeping a pair of Malamutes apart. Crating and separate out time is obvious but what often helps is having a separate area for the bitch outside which can just be temporary so the dog isn't constantly in contact with where the bitch is peeing. We're mean and our girls stay outside when in season but bitches britches are readily available - they are for MESS control not birth control!

[The Spotted Devil]

I find that Zig is much calmer if he can see Em so generally they are rotated indoors between crates - lots of stuffed Kongs and BUCKETS of exercise and training. Em goes quite feral and trains really well. The chooks lose their large steep yard and Em runs and toilets in there only. She wears bitch pants indoors and I have throw sheets everywhere - prevents mess and it reduces the lovely smells for Zig when they swap over. I find they can run together (closely supervised) for the first few days but then I separate therm strictly until about 3 weeks as Zig is more chilled if he's not sniffing her all the time. Plus Em is very submissive and she doesn't tell him off sufficiently when he is being too pushy. When Em is about Day 10 I give her a marrowbone in the crate and she consequently tells Zig off if he comes near her - no substitute for supervision of course and I lock them in opposite ends of the house if I'm not home. I also send Zig out to toilet more often and he's never peed inside. He trains and trials really well although he has some cotton candy moments if there are pretty, flirty girl dogs to swoon over. I just wish I could compete with Em as she's amazing!

Edited April 3, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[Christina]

Some good advice & obviously depends on the dogs.

I can only add that never under estimate what a dog may do to get to a bitch or even the other way around.

My toy poodle cleared a 4 foot room divider to get to the boy.

Some dogs have even been known to crash through windows.

[Remarkabull]

I rotate them between being crated and taking turns at being inside and outside. At night they are crated next to each other (as per normal) and we don't have any issues. My bitch is a reall tart when the time is right and will hump everything in sight but when it's over she is happy to tell the others to back off :)

[The Spotted Devil]

The worst is when you have visitors who don't understand all the fuss and think you're overdoing the whole separation thing. In that case I ensure Zig is ALWAYS with me... no matter where I am in the house. As you get to know the dogs in question and get a bit more savvy it gets so much easier. The first time I was very much pulling my hair out but now it's no problem.

[FHRP]

It depends how bearable your boy is while the girl is in season and how tolerant you are! Seperating them is pretty straight forward, seperate crates, seperate toileting areas if possible or seperate toileting times, never let them together especially after the first few days etc. Even without an entire male in the house, you can't leave a bitch in season outside unattended anyway, well I won't, not even in a dog run (mine doesn't have a roof). However after about day 6 my boys become whinging obsessed idiots and in a small house on a suburban block it wears thin very quickly. It doesn't matter if they're crated near each other, in opposite ends of the house etc. I lose my patience pretty quick and send my bitch off to a trusted friend in the country that only has girl dogs and has secure facilities. Is it an option for the bitch to go back to the breeder if she comes in season while your boy is stil entire? Or maybe you will be lucky and your boy won't be as stupid as mine :laugh:

Interestingly when away from the house my boys are pretty much fine and can trial and train even when they have a bitch at home for breeding.

eta. Suprelorin could be an option. Be aware that it will most likely signifcantly reduce the size of your boys testicles and although I've never heard of a judge refusing a dog because of this, it could happen.

Edited April 4, 2014 by FHRP

[espinay2]

Baby gates and crates and doors and dog runs etc for most of the time (always at least 2 doors/gates between them unless fully supervised). I keep some kind of physical barrier between them from the day she starts till about a week after he is no longer interested (can be up to a month depending on the bitch). If you can get one, a dog run is a big help even if you only use it for one of them when a girl is in season. My boy is only 'full on' for about the five days the girls are 'ready' (some are interested though whole time though) so while general separation works well for the most of the time and all are calm about that, for that week we have to step things up a notch as he is a maniac. We end up sleeping in separate bedrooms at night...me with the boy and my other half with the girls...at separate ends of the house. It keeps the peace as my boy is calmer when he is with me (and a lot less noisy - boy can he make a racket!). Alternative is to board one of them (the boy usually) for the period. I have a boy I bred that comes back here while the co-owner has a bitch in season as she is not fully set up to separate when she is at work. I have also 'day boarded' my boy in the past while I was at work so I could be sure no one was breaking down any gates or fences.

Edited April 4, 2014 by espinay2

[Mim]

I don't have experience with this but just wanted to say that OMG Zim is 18 months already!

[DeltaCharlie]

We keep at least one crated at a time, and both crated at night when we can't supervise. Our bitches are NEVER allowed outside unsupervised and during peak times they are toileted on a long line. Dogs can mate through fences, through dog run panels etc. Not worth the risk IMO.

It really depends on the individual dogs though and so many factors play a part. How clean is the bitch and do you want her contained? Is the dog obsessed with her or oblivious (Whip is oblivious for the most part LOL)? Is the bitch a tart and wants the boys all season, or one who tells them where to go unless the timing is perfect? If your boy has never been used at stud that can make a difference too- he may not even understand what is happening and ignore her, or he may be so obsessed with her and hound her for 3 weeks straight as he doesn't understand about timing :)

[Cleo's Corgwyn]

Thanks everyone, lots of good advice there for me to digest. Yes, Mim, Zim was 18 months old at the start of this week.

He's never been used at stud, and probably won't ever be. He only has maybe 6 or 7 best of Breeds to finish his title and then he'll probably be desexed. But of course, Murphy's Law dictates that she'll probably come into season just before his last show!

He certainly *thought* that he might know what to do when his playmate, my friend's Belgian Malinois came into season a few months ago. I guess it will be wire crates and keeping them separated for several weeks when she comes into season. I might temporarily fence off the side of the house as a toileting area for her as well.

I'll look into getting her some britches as well, as our dogs are inside dogs.

Thanks again, everyone!

[pebbles]

Constant supervision, toileted separately, calm dog (thank goodness) and, of course, the nickers lol.

[Nekhbet]

Crates, baby gates and rotate inside and out. I've had entire dogs together for years and never had an accident. I just lock the girls outside for run around time a few times a day then rotate so they're not cooped up too much. It's not as big a stress as it seems to be honest.

[Bjelkier]

Crates, baby gates and rotate inside and out. I've had entire dogs together for years and never had an accident. I just lock the girls outside for run around time a few times a day then rotate so they're not cooped up too much. It's not as big a stress as it seems to be honest.

This ^^

I find it fairly easy to deal with.

[Cleo's Corgwyn]

I'm sure I'll manage, it just like anything new, I like to be informed! If she show signs of coming into season soon, then her breeder will keep her for a few more weeks, otherwise we're going to meet her this weekend.

When the aim is for her to be company for my boy, I'd like them to be able to keep each other company and get to know each other, before I have to spend several weeks keeping them separate!

[Mystiqview]

My bitches boxes are essentially 6 foot (1.8m high) temporary fence type gates at the ends of about 1.5m wide. Mine have personnel gates at one end for my access. The side panels are 3m long. The whole thing is clamped together using pipe Downey fittings. The beauty is, it is all relocatable and transportable. The roof on mine is shade cloth. One is set on pavers bought from bunnings, the other on concrete to stop digging under. I can take a photo of mine when I get home if needed. The pavers I laid myself. Just flattened out an area and put them down and brushed dirt back over to fill the gaps between the pavers. One is made from chain wire and the other arc-mesh.

Of course material will depend on what kind of dog you have. The ends of one are from a building recycle place.

Best similar example can be found here: http://www.factoryfast.com.au/p/2-3-x-2-3m-pet-enclosure-dog-kennel-run-animal-fencing-fence/?utm_campaign=home-lifestyle

Mine is home made. I don't have jumpers, so suits my situation. My original one had a iron roof that bolted on top. I have a wooden kennel in each for shade and weather.

Even when I lived in suburbia, I was not too concerned about separate toilet areas between my dog and bitch I seasons. He can smell it anyway, so really no real extra benefit separating toilet areas. A new young dog may be whingey and whiney all the way through. An experienced stud dog may only be a pain during ovulation. My boy used to whinge from about a week before she started right till the end. Now, after a few studs, he only is whingey during those 2-3 days. Each dog is different.

I lock my bitch up for 28 days, I had an accidental mating years ago on day 21 that took. Maiden dog and bitch on her first season and he was not showing interest, and I let my guard down. Learnt from that mistake. Lucky I caught them in the act and waited 30 days, checked her and aborted the pregnancy.

The bitches boxes haved proved useful for small kennel type runs when they have needed to be locked up for other reasons such as injury, or other health reasons where I have had to keep them quiet. The run gives them a bit more freedom if movement that a crate just simply doesn't allow for. It was not a hugely expensive exercise and they are certainly useful. Their transportability makes them good if you're renting.

If she is a coated breed, they start to drop coat about 4-6 weeks before coming into season and dogs start to show an increased interest in their behinds. Gives you warning to expect her soon to come Into season and to start checking her.

There is no need to lock her up for several weeks.

Bitch pants are great to stop the red dots in the house. That is their only good use. That is also providing she keeps them on.

[VizslaMomma]

Crates, baby gates and rotate inside and out. I've had entire dogs together for years and never had an accident. I just lock the girls outside for run around time a few times a day then rotate so they're not cooped up too much. It's not as big a stress as it seems to be honest.

This ^^

I find it fairly easy to deal with.

About 14 years ago we had the last lot of both dogs & bitches being together when all were entire.

We used to be very vigilant as written.

Once and once only was there a 40 minute period where there was no human on duty.

Sighs.

To this day I still recall the horror of the near $1000 dollars of damage to that bathroom door. Sam, the FATHER of the bitch in season, barrelled thro' the door. Mated with her & then hide.

A less than intelligent family member said at the time oh I never thought a father would touch his daughter. Can not educate mugs.

My current boy, now aged 14, has never misbehaved near a female.

I make a great effort to never compromise the dogs.

[j]

Crates, baby gates and rotate inside and out. I've had entire dogs together for years and never had an accident. I just lock the girls outside for run around time a few times a day then rotate so they're not cooped up too much. It's not as big a stress as it seems to be honest.

This ^^

I find it fairly easy to deal with.

About 14 years ago we had the last lot of both dogs & bitches being together when all were entire.

We used to be very vigilant as written.

Once and once only was there a 40 minute period where there was no human on duty.

Sighs.

To this day I still recall the horror of the near $1000 dollars of damage to that bathroom door. Sam, the FATHER of the bitch in season, barrelled thro' the door. Mated with her & then hide.

A less than intelligent family member said at the time oh I never thought a father would touch his daughter. Can not educate mugs.

My current boy, now aged 14, has never misbehaved near a female.

I make a great effort to never compromise the dogs.

Many many years ago, I had a large, cross breed female. I had been told she would be at least 10-11 months old before she had her first season, so I had her booked in to be desexed when she was about 7 months old. She came in when she was 6 months old (much to my surprise, and the vet who told me she would be so much older) and from day 1 there were a bunch of dogs hanging around outside our gate. I kept her inside as much as I could, but one day, I knew I was going to be out for an extended period of time, so I put her in the under the house area and locked the door. I got home that afternoon to find the biggest, ugliest mutt I've ever seen in the backyard. The wooden door had been destroyed by the pair of them. I took her to the vet as soon as her season finished and had her desexed. Fortunately she wasn't pregnant, but it was a very stressful wait for me. So yes, determination is a big factor to be aware of. It may not necessarily be your dog that you have to worry about the most

[Mystiqview]

Funny though. When I was in suburbia, we had housing commission on two sides with their typical 3 foot chain wire fence. On our rear fence, there was the biggest ugliest and meanest entire amstaff. I kept a number of large long bars around the back yard as this dog would be down the fence trying to eat you as soon as you walked into the back yard. The owners barely did a thing for the dogs. They would jump the fence and terrorise the kids at the school on the opposite side. However, despite having bitches on season, one thing he didn't do was jump the 3 foot fence into my yard to get to my bitches (to my surprise). An easy feat for that dog.