Alyosha Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I sometimes despair of breeding dogs. If a vet is giving a puppy owner advice that supplementing extra calcium in a large breed dog is not warranted and possibly offering medication as an alternative, what would others do? A giant to large breed pup on a diet of some commercial dry and some tinned food and the vet won't agree that mineral intake in lacking?? Saying that giving calcium might cause HD later in life?? Am I being unreasonable to feel like banging my head against a wall?? Edited March 28, 2014 by Alyosha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) If the pup is on a decent dry dog food, for what it's worth, I agree with the vet. Calcium supplementation on it's own CAN lead to growth issues in pups. If there must be diet supplementation then it must be a equal ratio of calcium and phosphorus - hello raw meaty bones like chicken wings. What medication did the vet want to give and for what reason? Edited March 28, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Does the dog have some kind of symptom of something wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Think you need more information about what is wrong, what symptoms the dog has that made the owner take it to the vet & what the medication is. A simple blood test would reveal if the pup was lacking in calcium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Without knowing more details .. I cannot offer an opinion - which type of food, what is the mediaction, and what is it supposed to do ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 is this the same person who has the pup with only one testicle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Agree that more information is needed to know for sure in this individual case. In general though, in large breeds supplementing extra calcium can be a bad move: http://personal.palouse.net/valeska/Growth-calcium-energy.htm http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal%20feeding%20of%20large%20breed%20puppies.pdf http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/04/09/slow-growth-diets-for-giant-breed-puppy.aspx https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Calcium supplementation CAN lead to growth issues in pups and in others no problems. In Danes it is preferred - Calc: Phos Ratio: 1.2:1 HOWEVER some, not all do better on a different ratio. Why did the dog go tot he vet in the first place?? Growth problem?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 (edited) The dog is lethargic... And lacking energy and appetite. Eating up to 1 1/2cups of dry a day and some tinned food. No bone material, no meat. And vet didn't raise any concerns about it's diet. Bloods show slightly reduced thyroid, not enough to medicate. If i saw that in a human child poor nutrition would be my first question. My experience with this breed is that commercial dry dog foods simply are not enough at this peak age, not even close. Long term health problems are more commonly seen from poor nutrition at this age. Add to that the fact that the dogs is eating less than half the volume it should be anyway. And however expensive Hills might be I don't consider it a suitable whole food for a young large to giant breed pup. But this vet apparently has looked after a couple of this breed, and also some borz-oodles (no comment). So my comment is, if the vet is so clever, why ask me for advice and assistance and then ignore it anyway? Just annoying. Oh and Rebanne, not the same pup owner. I'm having a good run this time around aren't I? Edited March 29, 2014 by Alyosha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 The dog is lethargic... And lacking energy and appetite. Eating up to 1 1/2cups of dry a day and some tinned food. No bone material, no meat. And vet didn't raise any concerns about it's diet. Bloods show slightly reduced thyroid, not enough to medicate. If i saw that in a human child poor nutrition would be my first question. My experience with this breed is that commercial dry dog foods simply are not enough at this peak age, not even close. Long term health problems are more commonly seen from poor nutrition at this age. Add to that the fact that the dogs is eating less than half the volume it should be anyway. And however expensive Hills might be I don't consider it a suitable whole food for a young large to giant breed pup. But this vet apparently has looked after a couple of this breed, and also some borz-oodles (no comment). So my comment is, if the vet is so clever, why ask me for advice and assistance and then ignore it anyway? Just annoying. Oh and Rebanne, not the same pup owner. I'm having a good run this time around aren't I? I agree that nutrition would be my first question but I'm with the vet and don't think you should be giving calcium supps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 Mine at the same age certainly are, as mine always are around this age. I've learned the very hard way that this age is critical for it. I'm still a bit stunned that the diet wasn't even discussed between owner and vet. I'd be getting a new one, but I'm a bit fussy with vets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Just to make a broad comment, what I try for as a breeder is to ensure that my views are grounded well enough in the research that a vet can't quibble - that's an aspirational goal, not an everyday reality. Food is a hard one as many of them sell it in the waiting room, but FWIW, I would never calcium supplement any of ours at that age (we feed a mix of raw and kibble, another religious war in dog food, but it works for us). With respect to the pup, nutrition is important and you know your lines, but in this case you seem to have clinical signs along with the slightly low thyroid reading. In the past when we have encountered that in an older sighthound (Faxon) we elected to give a low dose of thyroxine even tho' the pathology results alone weren't enough to justify it. The difference was remarkable, it was exactly what he needed. It is very much about the dog and the presentation tho', in Salukis you can have a very low thyroid reading that in an ordinary dog would say "thyroxine now!" and the dog doesn't show a single clinical sign so I'd never supplement a Saluki who read low but was bouncing about as usual with a shiny coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wundahoo Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I agree with you Espinay2. Alyosha what age is the pup ?? Is it underweight or overweight ? If the pup is not under optimal weight then it's energy requirements may be satisfied with the amount of food that it's eating at the moment. You mentioned Hill's diets.....if it's being fed Hills then the calcium:phosphorus ratio will be correct so there will be no need for supplementation and in fact to add further calcium to the diet will more than likely be detrimental. T4 levels in young rapidly growing animals are rarely accurate and unless there is a huge gap between the expected normal range and the blood result, thyroid supplementation is not generally recommended without further workup. In fact if there is a discrepancy in T4 that is considered abnormal then a full thyroid workup is usually suggested as T4 testing is often the first basic screen only. I doubt that the "lethargy", lack of energy and appetite are true clinical signs or are necessarily related to diet/nutrition or blood thyroid levels. You are correct in saying that long term health problems are more commonly seen from poor nutrition, but I guess that it comes down to an individual opinion of what constitutes "poor nutrition". Many people would say that to supplement an already balanced diet with calcium could bring an adequate nutritional plane into one that was not. Maximal growth is very rarely optimal growth and I feel that the "grow them slow" method is by far the best for any breed, particularly large or giant breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 If this was my dog I would want a T5 blood done and sent to Jean Dodds at HemoPet in California. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Alysoha, I do share some of your frustrations...... Most vets do not breed yet often push their point of view..... Most vets are not feed specialist but happy to sell pre-packed food off their shelf...... Most vets don't have a broad range of experience with training yet conduct puppy classes.... For me, most vets are the same as a GP but we have to remember Vets are a GP for multi species - not an easy task so it is important that WE DON'T put them up on a pedestal and expect them to know everything. The big problem is the public do take everything their vet says as the be all and end all...... Hence I gain information from different sources and fill my puppy packs with information and references/links to these specialists - I encourage my puppy buyers to question advice from ALL professionals, including me....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underfoot Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 As a vet nurse I find the Hills pet food to be rather poor. It is overpriced and over sold IMO. During growth phase nutrients and nutrition are very important. Being lethargic is a big warning sign that something is wrong. I hope you can help educate the owner. Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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