Training Out An Unwanted Behavior

[Aidan3]

Aidan, is it possible to determine whether a fear aggressive dog repeatedly punished for reacting to other dogs has stopped the reactive behaviour because they have learned an alternative non-reactive behaviour or because they have developed learned helplessness?

Good question. Usually with a dog who has been punished for aggression you will see something eventually. The classic example is the dog who doesn't bark or lunge, but will bite if pressed. An animal with learned helplessness looks depressed and doesn't do anything to change their situation.

The punishment for reactivity breaks the drive to attack.....Cesar Milan with his slip leash is subtly air blocking the dog if you watch closely so the dog is more concerned about taking it's next breath than reacting. The dog learns that reacting causes a breathing issue and to avoid that they revise their choice to react and in the process of that, they are exposed to their demons which in face of a calm decoy dog they learn nothing terrible happened by remaining calm themselves. Air blocking is more effective than sharp corrections or prong collars and the like as it doesn't escalate aggression that is air blocking takes the drive out of the dog not increases it. Along with this technique for reactivity, the dog is also rewarded for calm behaviour with treats.......treats are good in monitoring stress levels as stressed dogs won't eat.....if executed properly which not many trainers outside of working dog circles tend to use this technique regularly, dogs when conditioned to accept treats in a calm demeanour in face of other dogs when previously reactive I doubt would be suffering issues of depression or Learned Helplessness as a result.

How do you condition a stressed dog to take treats?

Give them a near death experience first?

[Simply Grand]

Am I right in thinking that a dog can un-learn helplessness if taught (and permitted) alternative options?

That's the strategy you would employ. Thankfully it's not common, more often the reactive behaviour just escalates until the owner or trainer give up on flooding. It's pretty hard to watch.

I had a client who had another trainer come and do this with their dog. The trainer was resolute, but he got bitten and had to stop to deal with the injury. So the dog learned to bite, and after that bit everyone in the house.

Working in a shelter, we sometimes (thankfully not too often) have dogs who at first at least just shut down and don't do anything. For a while they will let anyone do anything to them. They are the ones we are most cautious about as they tend to be the ones who get slightly more comfortable when nothing particularly bad happens but still feel the fear then go straight to biting with no warning because they have learned that the warnings get them nowhere.

Could be a bit of both there, nothing is black and white. Seligman set up extreme conditions for learned helplessness, and in real life those conditions wouldn't be met. Well, I say that, but as we've seen, some trainers do some fairly extreme things.

Indeed some trainers do. It definitely isn't black and white, especially when we often don't know any history in a shelter. I suspect with a lot of our dogs there is an inherited aspect also.

Oh I should add, plenty of times the shut down dog realises they are not going to be punished for being scared, can approach and move away as they feel comfortable and start to learn a positive association with whatever they are fearful of and go on to happy lives :)

Edited April 8, 2014 by Simply Grand

[Simply Grand]

Aidan, is it possible to determine whether a fear aggressive dog repeatedly punished for reacting to other dogs has stopped the reactive behaviour because they have learned an alternative non-reactive behaviour or because they have developed learned helplessness?

Good question. Usually with a dog who has been punished for aggression you will see something eventually. The classic example is the dog who doesn't bark or lunge, but will bite if pressed. An animal with learned helplessness looks depressed and doesn't do anything to change their situation.

The punishment for reactivity breaks the drive to attack.....Cesar Milan with his slip leash is subtly air blocking the dog if you watch closely so the dog is more concerned about taking it's next breath than reacting. The dog learns that reacting causes a breathing issue and to avoid that they revise their choice to react and in the process of that, they are exposed to their demons which in face of a calm decoy dog they learn nothing terrible happened by remaining calm themselves. Air blocking is more effective than sharp corrections or prong collars and the like as it doesn't escalate aggression that is air blocking takes the drive out of the dog not increases it. Along with this technique for reactivity, the dog is also rewarded for calm behaviour with treats.......treats are good in monitoring stress levels as stressed dogs won't eat.....if executed properly which not many trainers outside of working dog circles tend to use this technique regularly, dogs when conditioned to accept treats in a calm demeanour in face of other dogs when previously reactive I doubt would be suffering issues of depression or Learned Helplessness as a result.

How do you condition a stressed dog to take treats?

Give them a near death experience first?

Apparently.

[Amax-1]

The dog learns that reacting causes a breathing issue and to avoid that they revise their choice to react and in the process of that, they are exposed to their demons which in face of a calm decoy dog they learn nothing terrible happened by remaining calm themselves. ....

.... dogs when conditioned to accept treats in a calm demeanour in face of other dogs when previously reactive I doubt would be suffering issues of depression or Learned Helplessness as a result.

Yeah, nothing bad happens except for their air supply being cut off.

Why are you talking about learned helplessness in this context? We were specifically discussing learned helplessness in the context of flooding. I didn't even make the claim that learned helplessness was likely, unless certain other conditions were met so I'm not sure where you're going with any of this?

You said this:

Learned helplessness is a response to aversives that cannot be escaped or avoided, repeatedly. In the context of this discussion, putting a reactive dog in front of another dog at close proximity with no simple opportunity to escape or adapt favourably.

I am responding to the context in which you raised it.

[Aidan3]

The dog learns that reacting causes a breathing issue and to avoid that they revise their choice to react and in the process of that, they are exposed to their demons which in face of a calm decoy dog they learn nothing terrible happened by remaining calm themselves. ....

.... dogs when conditioned to accept treats in a calm demeanour in face of other dogs when previously reactive I doubt would be suffering issues of depression or Learned Helplessness as a result.

Yeah, nothing bad happens except for their air supply being cut off.

Why are you talking about learned helplessness in this context? We were specifically discussing learned helplessness in the context of flooding. I didn't even make the claim that learned helplessness was likely, unless certain other conditions were met so I'm not sure where you're going with any of this?

You said this:

Learned helplessness is a response to aversives that cannot be escaped or avoided, repeatedly. In the context of this discussion, putting a reactive dog in front of another dog at close proximity with no simple opportunity to escape or adapt favourably.

I am responding to the context in which you raised it.

No, you're not. You're talking about choking dogs, and dogs who have learned to fight to relieve their anxiety and therefore cannot be flooded (in your opinion, which I disagree with) without an aversive restraint. That is categorically different to the context in which I raised it.

In fact, you're actively seeking examples where a dog couldn't learn helplessness (in your opinion, which I disagree with), citing that they are given an opportunity to learn to be calm instead. That would be a "simple opportunity to escape or adapt favourably" (unless you are using "escape" in the literal sense of the word, and not as a technical term which anyone who has used a prong, e-collar, check chain, or slip collar should be familiar with).

I have provided a reference for learned helplessness. It might benefit the discussion if you read up on it and try to understand it, rather than just trying to prove a point which doesn't even reflect the context of the discussion or address the claims I have made.

[Amax-1]

The dog learns that reacting causes a breathing issue and to avoid that they revise their choice to react and in the process of that, they are exposed to their demons which in face of a calm decoy dog they learn nothing terrible happened by remaining calm themselves. ....

.... dogs when conditioned to accept treats in a calm demeanour in face of other dogs when previously reactive I doubt would be suffering issues of depression or Learned Helplessness as a result.

Yeah, nothing bad happens except for their air supply being cut off.

Why are you talking about learned helplessness in this context? We were specifically discussing learned helplessness in the context of flooding. I didn't even make the claim that learned helplessness was likely, unless certain other conditions were met so I'm not sure where you're going with any of this?

You said this:

Learned helplessness is a response to aversives that cannot be escaped or avoided, repeatedly. In the context of this discussion, putting a reactive dog in front of another dog at close proximity with no simple opportunity to escape or adapt favourably.

I am responding to the context in which you raised it.

No, you're not. You're talking about choking dogs, and dogs who have learned to fight to relieve their anxiety and therefore cannot be flooded (in your opinion, which I disagree with) without an aversive restraint. That is categorically different to the context in which I raised it.

In fact, you're actively seeking examples where a dog couldn't learn helplessness (in your opinion, which I disagree with), citing that they are given an opportunity to learn to be calm instead. That would be a "simple opportunity to escape or adapt favourably" (unless you are using "escape" in the literal sense of the word, and not as a technical term which anyone who has used a prong, e-collar, check chain, or slip collar should be familiar with).

I have provided a reference for learned helplessness. It might benefit the discussion if you read up on it and try to understand it, rather than just trying to prove a point which doesn't even reflect the context of the discussion or address the claims I have made.

Learned helplessness occurs when an animal is repeatedly subjected to an aversive stimulus that it cannot escape. Eventually, the animal will stop trying to avoid the stimulus and behave as if it is utterly helpless to change the situation. Even when opportunities to escape are presented, this learned helplessness will prevent any action.

When in training is a dog subject to repeated aversive stimulus that it cannot escape when the escape from the aversive is the dog offering an alternate behaviour where the aversive stops......this isn't even relevant to dog training in aversive methods at all?. The dog learns to avoid the stimulus when offering the desired behaviour and is never placed in a position where it's helpless to change the situation in any form of aversive training system unless conducted by a complete drongo. The likelihood of a dog developing Learned Helplessness trained in an aversive system is ZERO when conducted by anyone with only basic knowledge in aversive systems.

I am referring to what Cesar Milan does when taking the leash (his leash which is a slip leash)from the owner of a reactive dog and walks this dog without reaction in face of another dog. What he is doing to correct the reactivity is air blocking the dog which is a strong aversive. The air block is released as the dog calms and kept off unless the dog re-engages in reactivity and within minutes of air blocking the dog learns fast to remain calm in order to breath. The escape path is calm and the air block stops so even an aversive as strong as the air block is impossible to create Learned Helplessness otherwise in your example of repeated subjectivity the dog would be dead. Now we have established under the most severe of aversives (the air block)that Learned Helplessness cannot occur whilst the dog remains alive, it's not a factor of consideration in dog training to be concerned about IMHO.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Amax-1

[Aidan3]

This is not a difference of opinion. By definition your examples are not flooding and do not address my claims. We are discussing entirely different things.

[Amax-1]

This is not a difference of opinion. By definition your examples are not flooding and do not address my claims. We are discussing entirely different things.

But in flooding you maintained an aversive isn't applied, so what's the concept you quoted in regard to Learned Helplessness from continual aversion for which there is no escape path? I don't see a relationship with flooding unless the flooding itself is considered the aversive?

[Aidan3]

Maybe you should google "flooding" and "aversive", Amax? You are confidently asserting a position without a cursory understanding of what we're discussing here.

[hankdog]

Jake couldn't take treats initially and then I read about licking being a calming action and thought of peanut butter. Initially just shoved it on his face but we have worked backwards and reduced some situations to a price of kibble through the spectrum to free access to the jar. He gets little food in bowl and most of his food is given as treats. He just expects to have to do something for food. Best training decision ever.

[Simply Grand]

Hankdog, did you start off by shoving the PB jar in front of Jake before he reached full blown reactivity? I imagine you did and probably still do? So if you turn a corner and a dog is suddenly right there do you shove the PB jar in Jake's face in that split second it takes him to register that there's a dog or within the first couple of barks, before he's reached that point he used to get to before the PB jar, when he wouldn't take treats?

(I'm going to assume you answer yes :laugh: )

That means you are catching him in a state of lower arousal, redirecting his focus, and giving him another, highly rewarding and incompatible alternative to reacting to the dog.

You've also increased the value of food by not giving him free access, making him work harder to get it when he has the opportunity ie. by staying close, focusing on the jar in the face of the distraction of the other dog.

You're also, as I think I've said before, creating a positive associated with the appearance of another dog, ie. his brain goes there's a dog, then the PB jar appears so he starts to, without thinking, register the other dog being there then instead of the next step being react negatively it becomes look for the PB jar.

There will be various other things going on too, to do with him learning that he can make decisions and control situations by making a different choice and finding one that is most effective in getting him out of a stressful situation (with is kinda the flip side to learned helplessness).

ETA - Aidan, happy to be corrected if I'm off track.

And Amax, happy to hear your views as well.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Simply Grand

[Amax-1]

Maybe you should google "flooding" and "aversive", Amax? You are confidently asserting a position without a cursory understanding of what we're discussing here.

The purpose of flooding is to expose the dog to the stimulus that triggers the unwanted reaction at a close proximity and through a prolonged time of exposure. Now, how do you expose a reactive dog in close proximity to another without restraint which will create an aversive from self correction at the end of the leash to prevent attack? Flooding without aversive restraint or unless the decoy dog is behind a fence isn't an easily orchestrated exercise to conduct with a truly reactive dog without a serious fight on your hands? I have seen a similar thing done with muzzled dogs allowed to belt each other up which I thought was a stupid exercise to counter reactivity?

[Simply Grand]

That's the point. Flooding is aimed at showing them that reacting ain't getting you nowhere so you may as well stop reacting. That's why it's so risky, how do you know what is going to happen. I don't think Aidan is advocating flooding...

[Amax-1]

Amax, happy to hear your views as well.

I have had some dog reactive GSD's in the past some human aggressive also in the era when we had to take the best of what was available for a working dog and some weren't the best in character. I don't believe rewarding calm when the dog is in threshold achieves much as reward or not, the dog is out of the reaction zone. What I do is take the dog into the cusp of the reaction zone right on the edge of threshold until the dog reacts then correct the dog aversively with a command to sit usually. Obviously the dog needs a solid sit behaviour conditioned and when the dog is on the cusp of threshold and he chooses to sit and behave is when I reward.....even with a pat and praise initially if the dog is too stressed to take a treat, then in time you can move closer to the target and introduce treats as the stress level reduces when the dog becomes more confident in the targets closer proximity.

A note on corrections and aversives in a law enforcement role where dogs are often amongst the public and other colleges, you CANNOT have lunging dogs taking pot shots at passive people absolutely no way can you have that behaviour exhibited and some over sharp dogs will do that and they are hard to handle and can be unpredictable and corrections and sometimes choke outs are the only training options that provide reliability by extinguishing the behaviour forthwith. Given as I mentioned you CANNOT have aggressive public displays by dogs towards passive people and some dogs will light up on the wrong targets whether you like the training option or not to apply a harsh correction, you have to stop them immediately by protocol which creates the placement of boundaries and consequence by necessity on those respective dogs. Corrective action applied to reactivity most certainly extinguishes the behaviour very well.

You can take it a bit more easily on a pet dog's rehabilitation as you don't have to place a pet by necessity before a reactivity target as you do with an operative dog but the same process applies....an aggressive lung IMHO is a high level poor behaviour that requires consequence for the dog to learn that an aggressive out burst isn't handler tolerated but to begin at the lower scale when the dog is on the cusp of reactivity not when the dog has blown right over threshold and lost the plot in the red zone, only a choke out will stop the dog at that point or dragging the dog away to gain composure. If aversives are applied to counter reactivity, it's a good thing IMHO if the dog fears correction because when that happens, the reactivity ceases as the dog to avoid correction behaves.

[Amax-1]

That's the point. Flooding is aimed at showing them that reacting ain't getting you nowhere so you may as well stop reacting. That's why it's so risky, how do you know what is going to happen. I don't think Aidan is advocating flooding...

No, I don't think Aidan was advocating flooding either and personally I don't like the concept at all especially with reactive dogs isn't a process I would consider applying.

[raineth]

admittedly I can't remember the article that well now as it was years ago, but I think part the idea of putting those Great Dane's in a grain bath was to control their reactions to a large extent so that they didn't have to deal with some of the problems that can eventuate in flooding.

Flooding is usually successful for people with phobias, but it is so stressful that usually exposure techniques are used instead. I was reading an article recently and I think it said a couple of hours is needed for flooding, so that is a long time to be in a highly negative emotional state (although that was with humans, dogs could need more or less time than that).

Edited April 10, 2014 by raineth

[hankdog]

Amax you speak of correcting a lunging dog as a poor level aggressive behavior however if the dog has a dog "phobia" for which flooding would be an appropriate treatment then a correction would perhaps serve to strengthen the phobia. I'm proposing that whilst an aggressive and a phobic dog will appear similar they would be qualitative different and treating a phobic dog as aggressive could be detrimental giving the dog a rational reason to fear the presence of a dog and increasing the phobia.

Whilst there's no proof that dogs may have phobias the way mine acts suggests his learning style is similar to humans who are prone to phobias.

Raineth I think the grain would be effective in stopping the feedback from physical movement in actually increasing anxiety. I wonder if it might also function a bit like a thunder shirt?

I have a friend whose dog bites unpredictably, he came through rescue and is a somewhat impassive dog. Interesting if learned helplessness could explain his behaviour.

Edited April 10, 2014 by hankdog

[Amax-1]

Amax you speak of correcting a lunging dog as a poor level aggressive behavior however if the dog has a dog "phobia" for which flooding would be an appropriate treatment then a correction would perhaps serve to strengthen the phobia. I'm proposing that whilst an aggressive and a phobic dog will appear similar they would be qualitative different and treating a phobic dog as aggressive could be detrimental giving the dog a rational reason to fear the presence of a dog and increasing the phobia.

Whilst there's no proof that dogs may have phobias the way mine acts suggests his learning style is similar to humans who are prone to phobias.

Raineth I think the grain would be effective in stopping the feedback from physical movement in actually increasing anxiety. I wonder if it might also function a bit like a thunder shirt?

I have a friend whose dog bites unpredictably, he came through rescue and is a somewhat impassive dog. Interesting if learned helplessness could explain his behaviour.

I don't see how you could set up a reactive dog for flooding exercises without restraint which would add an aversive if the reactive dog is lunging at the end of the leash trying to attack the decoy dog as a reactive dog does in close proximity to another by default unless a fence or the like separated them perhaps. I have seen reactive dogs allowed to fence fight and usually one dog will back off in time which is essentially a win for the other probably reinforcing the behaviour in the winning dog. Having said that, I have seen a stability test conducted with a dog backed up to a fence held in a drop stay with a reactive dog behind the fence going off and what happened there, the reactive dog after 30 seconds or so stopped reacting when the other dog ignored the commotion. When the reactive dog stopped, it appeared by memory to look more confused when the aggressive display on the fence didn't cause the other dog to react or drive it away. I guess it's similar to approaching a fence with a guard dog behind it if you stand at the fence motionless long enough, the guard dog will stop barking and lunging....what mindset is occurring at that point is a good question??

[Kavik]

While I generally subscribe to training under threshold and LAT for aggression, it was very interesting that some people who helped me with Zoe's aggression were able to put her in a yard with their GSDs (I boarded her there for a while), and she did eventually stop being aggressive, the other dogs did not react.

[Amax-1]

While I generally subscribe to training under threshold and LAT for aggression, it was very interesting that some people who helped me with Zoe's aggression were able to put her in a yard with their GSDs (I boarded her there for a while), and she did eventually stop being aggressive, the other dogs did not react.

Did you have the GSD in your signature with Zoe at the same time and she was ok with your GSD? I have had a GSD who was ok with GSDs but not with other breeds. I thought perhaps because he lived with my other two GSD's and was ok with them, he had a breed tolerance. To expand on this, I took him to the GSD club once and his behaviour was fine until he saw someone with a Staffy in the car park and he lost the plot

LAT works well with dogs who have drive in the right place to achieve good handler focus.....a working Kelpie I imagine would have that inherent drive, but the reactive GSD's I have experienced that didn't respond to LAT type regimes well, were not good at achieving handler focus in other training areas either and were hard work compared with others to train through distractions.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Amax-1