Training Out An Unwanted Behavior

[Aidan3]

Learned responses always have some innate component and vice-versa, but if you try flooding with a dog genetically predisposed to fear of that stimulus you're risking learned helplessness.

[hankdog]

Aiden if you don't mind can I pick your brains please. Can you expand a bit on what learned helplessness is and how it would look as a response?

[Aidan3]

Sure, I don't mind at all. Learned helplessness looks like depression in humans. The dog doesn't respond adaptively to aversive stimuli, they just give up. Any steps towards that state on the continuum from "normal" to "learned helplessness" is undesirable.

I'll dig up an article or two for you when I'm at a computer.

[Amax-1]

Sure, I don't mind at all. Learned helplessness looks like depression in humans. The dog doesn't respond adaptively to aversive stimuli, they just give up. Any steps towards that state on the continuum from "normal" to "learned helplessness" is undesirable.

I'll dig up an article or two for you when I'm at a computer.

Are you saying that a dog refraining from a behaviour after application of an aversive has entered "learned helplessness", that is although the dog ceased the behaviour after application of an aversive, that is the aversive was effective extinguishing the behaviour but undesirable because the dog entered the wrong mindset, that is the dog extinguished the behaviour for the wrong reason?

So when puppy tries to eat mum's food, mum quickly growls at puppy snapping puppy on the neck and puppy runs away tail between it's legs adaptively learning by instincts for which a dog is naturally wired to accept such an aversive, that eating mum's food, puppy is going to cop an aversive from mum for inappropriate behaviour and consequently to avoid aversive refrains from eating mum's food, however as trainers, we should avoid the learning curves as wired into dogs by nature as scientific evidence concludes that mum doesn't know the correct methods to chastise,train and set boundaries for her pup?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Amax-1

[Aidan3]

No, that's an entirely incorrect interpretation of what I wrote. Have you been following the discussion?

[Aidan3]

Learned helplessness is a response to aversives that cannot be escaped or avoided, repeatedly. In the context of this discussion, putting a reactive dog in front of another dog at close proximity with no simple opportunity to escape or adapt favourably.

Do you know what "evidence" is, A-max?

[Amax-1]

Learned helplessness is a response to aversives that cannot be escaped or avoided, repeatedly. In the context of this discussion, putting a reactive dog in front of another dog at close proximity with no simple opportunity to escape or adapt favourably.

Do you know what "evidence" is, A-max?

I don't really follow this in all honesty? Is learned Helplessness the response caused by placing the dog in close proximity to another dog or the dog fearing an aversive correction should it attempt to escape?

A reactive dog in close proximity to another dog wants to nail the other dog not escape.....wouldn't Learned helplessness be more applicable to the dog who's about to get nailed not the aggressor?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Amax-1

[Aidan3]

Learned helplessness is a response to aversives that cannot be escaped or avoided, repeatedly. In the context of this discussion, putting a reactive dog in front of another dog at close proximity with no simple opportunity to escape or adapt favourably.

I don't really follow this in all honesty? Is learned Helplessness the response caused by placing the dog in close proximity to another dog or the dog fearing an aversive correction should it attempt to escape?

There are no corrections or threats of correction.

A reactive dog in close proximity to another dog wants to nail the other dog not escape.....wouldn't Learned helplessness be more applicable to the dog who's about to get nailed not the aggressor?

It's a relatively simple matter to show that this is not the case. Before you can do CAT you need to do something called Functional Analysis which is an evidence gathering and analysis exercise that reveals what the dog is trying to achieve with their behaviour. We expect, based on sound logic, that dogs are reactive because they are anxious or fearful of the other dog and display ritualised aggression to increase the distance between them and the other dog. This is not difficult to verify, you can set up a number of trials and determine whether increasing distance reinforces a target behavioural response or not. In most cases it does, even for dogs who bite or even kill other dogs.

If you employ flooding as a strategy, repeatedly putting the dog over threshold and giving them no option for escape, you're walking down the path of learned helplessness. In the extreme case, nothing they do works to provide escape or avoidance. More often, they escalate their behaviour, the trainer relents or something goes wrong, and they learn that escalating the unwanted behaviour is what works (as a side-note, this is how you create a "red-zone" dog for TV).

CAT, done properly, gives the dog plenty of opportunities to escape but through pro-social behaviour and without repeatedly putting the dog over threshold.

Picking a decoy dog needs to be done carefully, but the whole experience should not be particularly stressful.

[Aidan3]

http://psychology.about.com/od/lindex/f/earned-helplessness.htm

[Simply Grand]

Aidan, is it possible to determine whether a fear aggressive dog repeatedly punished for reacting to other dogs has stopped the reactive behaviour because they have learned an alternative non-reactive behaviour or because they have developed learned helplessness?

[Aidan3]

Aidan, is it possible to determine whether a fear aggressive dog repeatedly punished for reacting to other dogs has stopped the reactive behaviour because they have learned an alternative non-reactive behaviour or because they have developed learned helplessness?

Good question. Usually with a dog who has been punished for aggression you will see something eventually. The classic example is the dog who doesn't bark or lunge, but will bite if pressed. An animal with learned helplessness looks depressed and doesn't do anything to change their situation.

[Amax-1]

Learned helplessness is a response to aversives that cannot be escaped or avoided, repeatedly. In the context of this discussion, putting a reactive dog in front of another dog at close proximity with no simple opportunity to escape or adapt favourably.

I don't really follow this in all honesty? Is learned Helplessness the response caused by placing the dog in close proximity to another dog or the dog fearing an aversive correction should it attempt to escape?

There are no corrections or threats of correction.

A reactive dog in close proximity to another dog wants to nail the other dog not escape.....wouldn't Learned helplessness be more applicable to the dog who's about to get nailed not the aggressor?

It's a relatively simple matter to show that this is not the case. Before you can do CAT you need to do something called Functional Analysis which is an evidence gathering and analysis exercise that reveals what the dog is trying to achieve with their behaviour. We expect, based on sound logic, that dogs are reactive because they are anxious or fearful of the other dog and display ritualised aggression to increase the distance between them and the other dog. This is not difficult to verify, you can set up a number of trials and determine whether increasing distance reinforces a target behavioural response or not. In most cases it does, even for dogs who bite or even kill other dogs.

If you employ flooding as a strategy, repeatedly putting the dog over threshold and giving them no option for escape, you're walking down the path of learned helplessness. In the extreme case, nothing they do works to provide escape or avoidance. More often, they escalate their behaviour, the trainer relents or something goes wrong, and they learn that escalating the unwanted behaviour is what works (as a side-note, this is how you create a "red-zone" dog for TV).

CAT, done properly, gives the dog plenty of opportunities to escape but through pro-social behaviour and without repeatedly putting the dog over threshold.

Picking a decoy dog needs to be done carefully, but the whole experience should not be particularly stressful.

A reactive dog with the learned behaviour of aggression and attack reduces stress don't seek flight paths as they build the confidence to be invincible in face of another dog and attack with active aggression in forward thrust. You cannot place a dog like this in face of another dog without aversive restraint for it to develop Learned Helplessness. A reactive dog over threshold attacks by default, it doesn't seek escape paths or stand there in a helpless state. The Learned Helplessness concept as I see it would apply more to dogs reactive when cornered not dogs reacting from active aggression who attack solely in forward thrust as occurs in many cases of dog reactivity.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Amax-1

[Aidan3]

OK then...

[Simply Grand]

Aidan, is it possible to determine whether a fear aggressive dog repeatedly punished for reacting to other dogs has stopped the reactive behaviour because they have learned an alternative non-reactive behaviour or because they have developed learned helplessness?

Good question. Usually with a dog who has been punished for aggression you will see something eventually. The classic example is the dog who doesn't bark or lunge, but will bite if pressed. An animal with learned helplessness looks depressed and doesn't do anything to change their situation.

Thanks Aidan. Also makes me think of resource guarders who have been punished for growling and therefore go straight to biting if forced to fight for a really valuable resource.

Am I right in thinking that a dog can un-learn helplessness if taught (and permitted) alternative options?

Amax, you've said yourself that in your experience reactive dogs tend to be the weaker nerved, more fearful dogs. I don't understand how you are now moving to reactive dogs are confident that they are infallible in the face of another dog? And that they want to "nail" the other dog?

[Aidan3]

Am I right in thinking that a dog can un-learn helplessness if taught (and permitted) alternative options?

That's the strategy you would employ. Thankfully it's not common, more often the reactive behaviour just escalates until the owner or trainer give up on flooding. It's pretty hard to watch.

I had a client who had another trainer come and do this with their dog. The trainer was resolute, but he got bitten and had to stop to deal with the injury. So the dog learned to bite, and after that bit everyone in the house.

[Amax-1]

Aidan, is it possible to determine whether a fear aggressive dog repeatedly punished for reacting to other dogs has stopped the reactive behaviour because they have learned an alternative non-reactive behaviour or because they have developed learned helplessness?

Good question. Usually with a dog who has been punished for aggression you will see something eventually. The classic example is the dog who doesn't bark or lunge, but will bite if pressed. An animal with learned helplessness looks depressed and doesn't do anything to change their situation.

The punishment for reactivity breaks the drive to attack.....Cesar Milan with his slip leash is subtly air blocking the dog if you watch closely so the dog is more concerned about taking it's next breath than reacting. The dog learns that reacting causes a breathing issue and to avoid that they revise their choice to react and in the process of that, they are exposed to their demons which in face of a calm decoy dog they learn nothing terrible happened by remaining calm themselves. Air blocking is more effective than sharp corrections or prong collars and the like as it doesn't escalate aggression that is air blocking takes the drive out of the dog not increases it. Along with this technique for reactivity, the dog is also rewarded for calm behaviour with treats.......treats are good in monitoring stress levels as stressed dogs won't eat.....if executed properly which not many trainers outside of working dog circles tend to use this technique regularly, dogs when conditioned to accept treats in a calm demeanour in face of other dogs when previously reactive I doubt would be suffering issues of depression or Learned Helplessness as a result.

Amax, you've said yourself that in your experience reactive dogs tend to be the weaker nerved, more fearful dogs. I don't understand how you are now moving to reactive dogs are confident that they are infallible in the face of another dog? And that they want to "nail" the other dog?

Dogs generally react out of insecurity although a weakness in nerve structure doesn't mean the dog is timid as it will either take a flight or fight path to reduce the stress of feeling insecure. A dog who takes a fight path to reduce stress learns quickly that acting aggressively causes the other dog to back off or run away which makes them feel better and they become confident in fixing these stressful situation with aggression. With praise and encouragement, dogs like this can actually enjoy it in the end which is reflective of the junk yard dog and other forms of protection training where they begin with reactive dogs with a fear component in character.

When a dog is conditioned with aggression to drive away stress, they react in forward motion with great confidence they can win any encounter put to them from another dog therefore flight path is completely extinguished with this type of dog until the dog gets nailed by another more aggressive dog which often changes their outlook.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Amax-1

[Simply Grand]

Am I right in thinking that a dog can un-learn helplessness if taught (and permitted) alternative options?

That's the strategy you would employ. Thankfully it's not common, more often the reactive behaviour just escalates until the owner or trainer give up on flooding. It's pretty hard to watch.

I had a client who had another trainer come and do this with their dog. The trainer was resolute, but he got bitten and had to stop to deal with the injury. So the dog learned to bite, and after that bit everyone in the house.

Working in a shelter, we sometimes (thankfully not too often) have dogs who at first at least just shut down and don't do anything. For a while they will let anyone do anything to them. They are the ones we are most cautious about as they tend to be the ones who get slightly more comfortable when nothing particularly bad happens but still feel the fear then go straight to biting with no warning because they have learned that the warnings get them nowhere.

[Aidan3]

The dog learns that reacting causes a breathing issue and to avoid that they revise their choice to react and in the process of that, they are exposed to their demons which in face of a calm decoy dog they learn nothing terrible happened by remaining calm themselves. ....

.... dogs when conditioned to accept treats in a calm demeanour in face of other dogs when previously reactive I doubt would be suffering issues of depression or Learned Helplessness as a result.

Yeah, nothing bad happens except for their air supply being cut off.

Why are you talking about learned helplessness in this context? We were specifically discussing learned helplessness in the context of flooding. I didn't even make the claim that learned helplessness was likely, unless certain other conditions were met so I'm not sure where you're going with any of this?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Aidan2

[Simply Grand]

Aidan, is it possible to determine whether a fear aggressive dog repeatedly punished for reacting to other dogs has stopped the reactive behaviour because they have learned an alternative non-reactive behaviour or because they have developed learned helplessness?

Good question. Usually with a dog who has been punished for aggression you will see something eventually. The classic example is the dog who doesn't bark or lunge, but will bite if pressed. An animal with learned helplessness looks depressed and doesn't do anything to change their situation.

The punishment for reactivity breaks the drive to attack.....Cesar Milan with his slip leash is subtly air blocking the dog if you watch closely so the dog is more concerned about taking it's next breath than reacting. The dog learns that reacting causes a breathing issue and to avoid that they revise their choice to react and in the process of that, they are exposed to their demons which in face of a calm decoy dog they learn nothing terrible happened by remaining calm themselves. Air blocking is more effective than sharp corrections or prong collars and the like as it doesn't escalate aggression that is air blocking takes the drive out of the dog not increases it. Along with this technique for reactivity, the dog is also rewarded for calm behaviour with treats.......treats are good in monitoring stress levels as stressed dogs won't eat.....if executed properly which not many trainers outside of working dog circles tend to use this technique regularly, dogs when conditioned to accept treats in a calm demeanour in face of other dogs when previously reactive I doubt would be suffering issues of depression or Learned Helplessness as a result.

How do you condition a stressed dog to take treats?

[Aidan3]

Am I right in thinking that a dog can un-learn helplessness if taught (and permitted) alternative options?

That's the strategy you would employ. Thankfully it's not common, more often the reactive behaviour just escalates until the owner or trainer give up on flooding. It's pretty hard to watch.

I had a client who had another trainer come and do this with their dog. The trainer was resolute, but he got bitten and had to stop to deal with the injury. So the dog learned to bite, and after that bit everyone in the house.

Working in a shelter, we sometimes (thankfully not too often) have dogs who at first at least just shut down and don't do anything. For a while they will let anyone do anything to them. They are the ones we are most cautious about as they tend to be the ones who get slightly more comfortable when nothing particularly bad happens but still feel the fear then go straight to biting with no warning because they have learned that the warnings get them nowhere.

Could be a bit of both there, nothing is black and white. Seligman set up extreme conditions for learned helplessness, and in real life those conditions wouldn't be met. Well, I say that, but as we've seen, some trainers do some fairly extreme things.