Dog Training Without Treats

[DobieMum]

Looking for any clips or you tube videos of dog training without treats (my new pup has no interest in them whatsoever). I have clicker trained my last few dogs and lured them with treats, so now I can't use them I'm lost. I need to see how I train a pup with toys instead of treats and how I play the reward (ie do I throw it for her to chase, breaking the position I had her in or do I play tug with her, again breaking position?). Totally lost at the moment and don't want to go back to the old push pull method.

Can anyone help please?

Edited March 23, 2014 by DobieMum

[ness]

You can still use a toy with a clicker. My BC was not very food motivated as a puppy. What I did do was use her meals to train her so she wasn't getting any additional food and it allowed me to lure behavior where I needed to. I would then substitute a toy reward fairly quickly. The other useful behavior which can be used as a substitute for a food lure is a nice hand touch.

Edited March 24, 2014 by ness

[Salukifan]

Looking for any clips or you tube videos of dog training without treats (my new pup has no interest in them whatsoever). I have clicker trained my last few dogs and lured them with treats, so now I can't use them I'm lost. I need to see how I train a pup with toys instead of treats and how I play the reward (ie do I throw it for her to chase, breaking the position I had her in or do I play tug with her, again breaking position?). Totally lost at the moment and don't want to go back to the old push pull method.

Can anyone help please?

If you are marking the correct behaviour, then it shouldn't be a problem to click then throw the reward. You can build duration up before releasing for the reward.

[Kavik]

As others have said, you can still use a marker when training with toys. I have found shaping with toys a bit more complicated than shaping with food, but certainly doable. You can either use tugging or throw the reward, depends on the exercise you are training. I train mostly agility stuff, so I use tugging for when I want to reward near me, and throw the reward (and retrieve for tugging when they return) when I want to reward the dog for being away from me.

Here is a short clip I just found which shows one example of how to use toys.

[DobieMum]

Thanks Kavik

That's what I was after, so I'm just waiting for the dog to offer me the "sit" and then reward for it?

[ness]

Yes effectively you can wait until the dog offers or you can ask the dog and reward the dog once the dog knows the behavior.

[Salukifan]

Thanks Kavik

That's what I was after, so I'm just waiting for the dog to offer me the "sit" and then reward for it?

You dont have to wait. You can lure it, then get it on cue.

Unless you have the patience of a saint, I'm no fan for free shaping this stuff. Show the dog what you want and reward it then FADE THE LURE.

[huski]

I using shaping with both food and toys but I personally find it much easier to use a verbal marker (I use the word "yes") rather than a clicker when using a toy.

With my Mal I would say 95% of training I do with her is with a ball or tug - she is food driven so I can use food when I want to, but I am so used to shaping and training with toys now I find it easy! :)

[gsdog2]

The other thing to remember is that, as with food, you don't rely on the toy. I have seen a number of people who carry the ball/tug ALL THE TIME while training - and whether it's hidden or not your dog knows you have it. The dog looks so focused because it knows you've got that ball and it's coming at any time. This will work until you step in the ring (in my case Obedience) and your dog won't work because it knows you don't have the ball. This is my problem - my dog has great 'focus' as long as she knows I have her reward, but she's very erratic in the ring (good scores some days, dreadful scores other days). During training I have left the ball on the side of the field and she will work but this doesn't work during a trial.

This is only my experience but I think I would try and make 'me' more important (rewarding?) rather than food, toy or ball with my next dog.

ETA Denise Fenzi has some video's on YouTube that might interest you

Edited March 24, 2014 by gsdog2

[huski]

The other thing to remember is that, as with food, you don't rely on the toy. I have seen a number of people who carry the ball/tug ALL THE TIME while training - and whether it's hidden or not your dog knows you have it. The dog looks so focused because it knows you've got that ball and it's coming at any time. This will work until you step in the ring (in my case Obedience) and your dog won't work because it knows you don't have the ball. This is my problem - my dog has great 'focus' as long as she knows I have her reward, but she's very erratic in the ring (good scores some days, dreadful scores other days). During training I have left the ball on the side of the field and she will work but this doesn't work during a trial.

This is only my experience but I think I would try and make 'me' more important (rewarding?) rather than food, toy or ball with my next dog.

ETA Denise Fenzi has some video's on YouTube that might interest you

IME this is a training problem more than a problem training the dog in prey drive (if we are talking in regards to toys). The reward experience should always be about the handler and dog sharing in the reward not the dog just getting a toy. Without the handler interaction the toy should have little to no value. If someone took my dogs ball from me when I was training her and waved it in her face she wouldn't be tempted or interested in taking it. The people I generally see struggle in trials because they don't have the reward visible or on their body, are the ones who try to trick the dog into thinking they have the reward, try to hide it, have taught the dog to trigger off the sight of the reward or don't have a strong enough foundation where the dog understands how the reward experience works.

[gsdog2]

I understand what your saying Huski - and for Indi, the ball only ever happens with me and only when we're training (and only when she gets the marker "yes"). I wouldn't like to say though, if someone took the ball from me and waved it around her face, that she would ignore it. When I'm actually in the ring with her, I would like to reward her between exercises - and that's my reasoning when I say I need to make 'myself' more rewarding (of value). I'm probably not explaining myself very well lol - I'm just a little frustrated at the moment and have been rethinking how I'm training Indi.

[huski]

I understand what your saying Huski - and for Indi, the ball only ever happens with me and only when we're training (and only when she gets the marker "yes"). I wouldn't like to say though, if someone took the ball from me and waved it around her face, that she would ignore it. When I'm actually in the ring with her, I would like to reward her between exercises - and that's my reasoning when I say I need to make 'myself' more rewarding (of value). I'm probably not explaining myself very well lol - I'm just a little frustrated at the moment and have been rethinking how I'm training Indi.

We all have those times where we feel frustrated!

There are some awesome high energy games you can play in between exercises that help keep engagement high. Weaving through your legs, nose targeting, a bit of physical rough housing, basic fun tricks. With wiz she has a lot of drive so I will probably keep her working in between exercises but with daisy I used to ask for nose targets to my hands or hi-10.

Training things like the dog ignoring rewards being offered by other people or thrown in front or around them helps build durability and it also reinforces the dogs understanding that the reward experience only happens with you.

[DobieMum]

Thanks Guys, these are all great ideas and really enjoying reading them.

I finally found a food reward that I can do the luring with and then we break to play with the tug. She's only 10 weeks old, so we're taking it slowly.