Desexing Pet Male Dogs

[Dame Aussie]

Yeah, I've had entire dogs and bitches and none have shown any of the behaviours mentioned.

[Christina]

I do also find the look of balls swaying in the breeze unsightly, but that's just me.

How odd. Then there is the opposite view where some, usually men, hate them without them & even go to the extreme & having fake inserts put in.

[bridgie_cat]

My vet suggested that desexed dogs are at greater risk of rupturing cruciate ligaments too (sex hormones play a role in keeping ligaments strong?).

it is my understanding that this link between CCL rupture is #1 associated with early desexing and #2 thought to be caused by the changed angles of the joint when the long bones grow slightly longer with growth plates that close later due to the lack of sex hormones.

I assume this is speculation re cause and effect as with many conclusions drawn from such studies, but in any case the ones I have read have been focusing on time of desexing in relation to joint issues.

this does not take into account cancer risk, which I have also read may be increased for some cancers (osteosarc comes to mind, but this was particularly for females and related to "oestrogen exposure time" again in relation to early vs late desexing) in the desexed dog, but decreased risk for others. Males do not have the same issue with mammary tumours which is the big deal for females although they do often get prostatic hyperplasia +/- testicular tumours etc when the testicles are left and thus continuing to influence the prostate. Prostate cancer is far less common in dogs than humans but even hyperplasia or inflammation/infection of the prostate can cause significant discomfort and issues deficating in older dogs and these tend to really only occur in entire older males.

it is a balancing act in my opinion and in circles where dogs are most likely kept 100% under control and in a secure yard (as is likely to be the case with DOL members who clearly are very interested in their pets and their wellbeing to be spending the time to research and chat about it) I do not think the accidental matings thing is such an issue but rather the decision should come down to these health considerations.

personally I would be looking at desexing a dog after the 13month growth plate closure as a minimum age... but would probably still be looking to desex before they get much older than this for the above reasons.

[Steph M]

Gus is desexed. Was a no brainer in the end. He was acting like a twerp and it was time. He was just shy of a year and I have absolutely noticed a calmer, more focussed, less nutty dog. Could be just him, but I'd always have desexed pets. Just easier for me to handle and less panic about oops matings.

Also as an aside he's never shown much interest in peeing on things, not even on walks and things but our desexed girl cocks her leg all the time when we are out.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Steph M

[Airedaler]

At the earliest - after maturity which is variable on breed but not before 12 months.

I had one entire male - with an entire bitch - for 4 years, he didn't piss on everything, didn't hump and wasn't an arse. I now have three entire males. The working BC has taken to peeing on wheels so now my other boy does (the pup doesn't mark as yet but is starting to take a keen interest in smelling pee spots) I have bitches in season at the kennels and they still behave don't hump, don't fight or roam. I am yet also to experience this so called arsewipe male dog behaviour. If they are humping, train them not to. I see much of the apparent male dog behavioural flaws as owners lack of training flaws.

I agree with this. Also I have seen many neutered dogs humping so I don't think desexing is necessarily going to affect this.

As to anyone that says they would have females speyed because of the risk of them becoming pregnant but keep males entire as I have heard on many occasions, it is the male that is able to mate bitches all year around and thus could be responsible for more unwanted puppies being born that the female that is only able to have one or maybe two litters in a year. It basically comes down to responsible ownership as I the case with most things dog related.

[Rebanne]

Generally I think all male dogs not to be used for breeding should be desexed.

1. Because dogs are dogs. They will pee on anything they can, hump & do anything to get to a bitch on heat & hormones can cause problem behaviours.

Guess my male dogs missed this memo :laugh:

[trinabean]

My vet suggested that desexed dogs are at greater risk of rupturing cruciate ligaments too (sex hormones play a role in keeping ligaments strong?).

it is my understanding that this link between CCL rupture is #1 associated with early desexing and #2 thought to be caused by the changed angles of the joint when the long bones grow slightly longer with growth plates that close later due to the lack of sex hormones.

I assume this is speculation re cause and effect as with many conclusions drawn from such studies, but in any case the ones I have read have been focusing on time of desexing in relation to joint issues.

this does not take into account cancer risk, which I have also read may be increased for some cancers (osteosarc comes to mind, but this was particularly for females and related to "oestrogen exposure time" again in relation to early vs late desexing) in the desexed dog, but decreased risk for others. Males do not have the same issue with mammary tumours which is the big deal for females although they do often get prostatic hyperplasia +/- testicular tumours etc when the testicles are left and thus continuing to influence the prostate. Prostate cancer is far less common in dogs than humans but even hyperplasia or inflammation/infection of the prostate can cause significant discomfort and issues deficating in older dogs and these tend to really only occur in entire older males.

it is a balancing act in my opinion and in circles where dogs are most likely kept 100% under control and in a secure yard (as is likely to be the case with DOL members who clearly are very interested in their pets and their wellbeing to be spending the time to research and chat about it) I do not think the accidental matings thing is such an issue but rather the decision should come down to these health considerations.

personally I would be looking at desexing a dog after the 13month growth plate closure as a minimum age... but would probably still be looking to desex before they get much older than this for the above reasons.

Yes, your explanation of the link between CCL rupture and early desexing makes sense. Thanks. :)

I don't think there's a 'one size fits all' choice for responsibe owners (as you mentioned Bridgie Cat, who keep their dogs 100% under control and in a secure yard). So for me, it really does come down to weighing up the health risks/ benefits for my particular dog, in my particular situation.

The paper I linked to earlier sums things up well in it's conclusion:

CONCLUSIONS An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the long-term health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do not yet understand about this subject. On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs to prevent future health problems, especially immature male dogs. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases. For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in many (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds. The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary. The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed, age, and gender are variables that must be taken into consideration in conjunction with non-medical factors for each individual dog. Across-the-board recommendations for all dogs do not appear to be supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature.

[Little Gifts]

We will never address the issue of homeless and pts rates until we desex all desexable pets who are not registered breeding animals. It only takes one bitch in season and one entire male to produce a litter of unwanted puppies. If everyone was taking the care they said they were taking, keeping their dogs fully contained in properly fenced yards (with no doodle holes!) then perhaps it wouldn't be such a big issue, but they are not. On my little street alone there are 3 undesexed males regularly just hanging out on their front lawns.

And why should it only be the girls who have to worry about pregnancy - it takes two to tango! Get those danglies off I say!

[RuralPug]

My view is that all males not intended for breeding should have that ability removed as soon as possible. The safest way to do that and not affect growth hormones is Tubal Ligation surgery at 10 weeks or so. Owners can then decide after the dog is fully mature whether to also castrate.

In the case of really tiny breeds (Chihuahuas, Yorkies, Miniature Pinschers, Maltese etc.) TL surgery may actually be too difficult to perform until they are sexually mature (5 months) but in the case of a large or giant breed there are huge advantages in TL surgery on baby puppies.

Whether or not councils will or even should apply desexing discounts to dogs that have undergone TL but not castration is a whole other discussion.

[Jumabaar]

We will never address the issue of homeless and pts rates until we desex all desexable pets who are not registered breeding animals. It only takes one bitch in season and one entire male to produce a litter of unwanted puppies. If everyone was taking the care they said they were taking, keeping their dogs fully contained in properly fenced yards (with no doodle holes!) then perhaps it wouldn't be such a big issue, but they are not. On my little street alone there are 3 undesexed males regularly just hanging out on their front lawns.

And why should it only be the girls who have to worry about pregnancy - it takes two to tango! Get those danglies off I say!

But why do some europeans not have a large number of homeless pets even with much lower rates of desexing- in some countries desexing is illegal unless for medical reasons.

So I think we need to focus on responsible ownership- either contain your dog adequately or if you can't you should desex. And it is the individuals too irresponsible to do one of these two things that are causing the problems so why judge others?

[kelpiecuddles]

Jumabaar I think to some extent you are tryng to close the gate after the horse has bolted. What you are suggesting is a widespread change in attitude and behaviour and that's never going to happen fast sadly.

Here I think we are preaching to the converted, it's unlikely to be the people on this site who are the cause of unwanted backyard litters.

In terms of why it's different in Europe I think a lot more people there are 'forced' to keep their pet dogs(as opposed to working dogs who may sleep in a barn etc) as indoor pets for climate reasons, so it follows that people are more inclined to raise their animals to be well mannered indoor suitable dogs. Here it colds but most of the time our weather is mild enough that with a decent kennel or somewhere to get out of the weather a dog survives OK outside so people buy a yard ornament and expect it to train itself and are surprised when it has no house manners!

[huski]

Whether other pet owners can responsibly manage entire dogs has no bearing on my decision not to desex my dogs.

I am a responsible owner and I am more than capable of managing entire dogs.

Personally I won't desex any of my dogs again unless there is a medical reason that requires it.

For anyone else I would always suggest researching it and making an informed decision.

I really enjoyed watching this video and it made me wonder why we don't look into other desexing procedures for female dogs;

[cali]

i am pro neuter for pet males and I will never allow an intact male in my house as long as i live. I have lived with an awful one though, my friends all had intact males whom I despised and I work in a kennel so I see them all at their worst so perhaps I'm biased.

[OSoSwift]

I own a kennel and currently have entire males and entire females - on of whom is in season. The MAles are cocking their legs a lot, but they quite often do that without a bitch in season. Theya re all eating well, playing not whinging and are quite happy. My own entire males are there every day, they do not pee inside the office or kitchen area, they are not humping, whinging or peeing everywhere etc.

Two of my worst, filthiest dogs are actually desexed bitches. One in particular pee's and poops in her house, then runs through it even with outside access. She will pee whereever, and quite often on her bed.

[Crisovar]

Generally I think all male dogs not to be used for breeding should be desexed.

1. Because dogs are dogs. They will pee on anything they can, hump & do anything to get to a bitch on heat & hormones can cause problem behaviours.

Guess my male dogs missed this memo :laugh:

Mine too, inappropriate marking, humping and other bad behaviours are TRAINING and management issues. Always amazes me that people think lopping off a dogs testicles will save them any effort.

[persephone]

inappropriate marking, humping and other bad behaviours are TRAINING and management issues.

yes :)

[Steve]

I am a responsible dog owner and I make decisions based on what is best for my dog's health - not based on what is easiest to manage them.

I train my boys and my girls and Im aware of the management issues involved in having entire dogs and ensure they are safe and not making unwanted puppies or marking where I dont want them to.

Ive no doubt that if I cut the testicles out of my sons I wouldn't have had to live through some of the dramas their hormones impacted on but we all know that would not have been good for their longevity or health. Take away testosterone and you don't just take away the ability to make puppies.

[Christina]

We will never address the issue of homeless and pts rates until we desex all desexable pets who are not registered breeding animals. It only takes one bitch in season and one entire male to produce a litter of unwanted puppies. If everyone was taking the care they said they were taking, keeping their dogs fully contained in properly fenced yards (with no doodle holes!) then perhaps it wouldn't be such a big issue, but they are not.

Above just about sums it up & that is why eventually people will lose their rights & freedom of choice & the nanny state will step in again & make dog owning more complex & impossible. Because too many people won't be responsible owners.

[Steph M]

I am a responsible dog owner and I make decisions based on what is best for my dog's health - not based on what is easiest to manage them.

I train my boys and my girls and Im aware of the management issues involved in having entire dogs and ensure they are safe and not making unwanted puppies or marking where I dont want them to.

Ive no doubt that if I cut the testicles out of my sons I wouldn't have had to live through some of the dramas their hormones impacted on but we all know that would not have been good for their longevity or health. Take away testosterone and you don't just take away the ability to make puppies.

While you ought be applauded for your management, not everyone has that ability or skillset. I don't feel its a bad thing for society as a whole.

[huski]

Desexing your dog doesn't make you a responsible owner. Would these people who backyard breed their dogs and have unwanted oops litters really become better or more responsible dog owners if they desexed their dogs? No. It may prevent them producing a litter from that dog but it won't make them better dog owners who take appropriate care of their dogs.

It's not responsible dog owners who contribute to the issue of unwanted dogs being PTS. If you are a responsible dog owner why should you have to desex your dogs because irresponsible owners can't manage theirs?

Edited March 15, 2014 by huski