Desexing Pet Male Dogs

[trinabean]

This one is an eye opener too.

My link

Oh thank you, I know someone who was looking for this particular study. I shall pass it on. :)

[Mystiqview]

As for bitches, they can desex, but leave the ovaries the same as they do in people. Ovaries are also valued hormones for more than just reproduction.

if anything they go the other way? taking the ovaries out and leaving the uterus.... this is the procedure taught in european vet schools over the ovariohysterectomy - rather they do an ovariectomy via key hole surgery.

The issue with having ovaries is that they provide the stimulus to the uterine wall which eventually tends to lead to cystic endometrial hyperplasia... which in turn tends to be the starting point for pyometra. Without the ovaries, the uterus does not do this. With ovaries, and with a stump of a uterus, you could still get a stump pyometra (I believe). This is the issue with having a bitch that has been speyed but has remnant ovarian tissue - they can get a stump pyometra. So you can see that the ovariectomy does not tend to leave you with bitches still getting pyometra, because there is no input...

Plus your benefits for mammary tumours would be lost if the ovaries are still there.... certainly the issues with growth plates and increased risk of various other cancers would be there.

I think many owners would also not choose to have a bitch still coming into season for all intents and purposes every 6 months.... and should those ovaries ever need to come out I would not want to be the vet fishing for them with no uterus as a guide certainly could be done but a much more difficult procedure.

I am no vet. I am going for what they do in humans- hysterectomy. Doctors take the uterus, but leave the ovaries (unless there is cause to take them too for medical reasons). If the ovaries go, then you go into early menopause.

Pyometra also occurs in humans.

I had a hysterectomy at 30. Never had kids. Something I have never looked back on. No after effects, no mass mood swings. Don't have a cervix so no embarrassing test every 6-12 months. Best thing ever.

If a vet can say this is not possible - ie this sort of op on dogs?

[persephone]

The op to remove uterus/cervix and leave ovaries is possible, for sure .

However , bitches will still show "in season behaviours" and attract males - things owners are pleased to NOT have in a dog who has had an ovarohysterectomy .

[persephone]

Pyometra also occurs in humans.

Not so much ... and I think with bitches, each cycle without a pregnancy leaves a thickening in the uterus ..and if this breaks down, it allows bacteria to grow .... something like that, anyhow.

[cavNrott]

[quote name='bridgie_cat' timestamp='1394962542' post='6442494'

if anything they go the other way? taking the ovaries out and leaving the uterus.... this is the procedure taught in european vet schools over the ovariohysterectomy - rather they do an ovariectomy via key hole surgery.

bridgie_cat. Would you be kind enough to explain the down side of this method of desexing. There's bound to be a down side to everything.

This appears to be an excellent method of desexing a bitch. It's certainly far less invasive than an ovariohysterectomy. Have any vets in Australia, to your knowledge, performed this keyhole method of removing the ovaries and leaving the uterus. If not I wonder why not.

[sandgrubber]

I own a kennel and currently have entire males and entire females - on of whom is in season. The MAles are cocking their legs a lot, but they quite often do that without a bitch in season. Theya re all eating well, playing not whinging and are quite happy. My own entire males are there every day, they do not pee inside the office or kitchen area, they are not humping, whinging or peeing everywhere etc.

Two of my worst, filthiest dogs are actually desexed bitches. One in particular pee's and poops in her house, then runs through it even with outside access. She will pee whereever, and quite often on her bed.

Similar here. When I had a boarding kennel, I encountered quite a few dirty desexed dogs and bitches. And lots of chronic humpers who had been castrated (including a few speyed bitches)..

HOWEVER, the stinkiest pee, hands down, came from entire males. Not all of them. But we had a few who really reeked.

This is unlikely to be a problem in a home situation, unless the owner is into indoor dog toilets.

[bamboo]

20 years ago I managed to persuade a friendly vet to remove my bitches uterus but leave the ovaries. She was a large 40kg mutt. I firmly believe that we don't have a full understanding of the hormonal complexities of the body, and wanted to minimise disruption. The vet refused to do a tubal ligation due to the risk of pyo and this was the compromise we reached. Ailsa's seasons were almost unnoticeable afterwards, with hardly any bleeding. She usually attracted no males, and there was very little impact on our lives. She did develop a mammary tumour which was successfully removed. She enjoyed excellent health until the age of14. I realise one dog does not make a study, but thought those thinking about options may be interested. I would do it this way again if I have another female.

[pebbles]

Don't believe in desexing either sex of my own dogs/bitches. Unnecessary invasive surgery. Most of my dogs have been show dogs so left entire but even when retired aren't desexed. Never had any health problems related to being entire and never had any dogs going mental when the girls are in season, not hard to manage the girls when in season. JMHO.

[bridgie_cat]

CavNRot

To my knowledge it is a simple surgery preference on a large scale. It is the method taught in Australia, and the US, to do the ovariohysterectomy so that is what the experienced surgeons know and teach and so on.

I know a surgeon who has attempted the key hole surgery for ovarian remnants but this was a difficult procedure without the uterus still there as a guide...

There are studies comparing the two methods... I will see if I can find one of them.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9404289

this one is a nice brief discussion on some of the considerations and concludes the ovariectomy would be your procedure of choice as it should be the less invasive surgery and the risks of having the uterus left in are minimal with no hormonal input from the ovaries. although they are essentially very similar (in benefits and risks) and issues mentioned around damaging ureters in OHE are really not a big consideration in a routine ovariohysterectomy... I do not know how someone would do this...

it is my understanding that you would have a hard time finding a vet to do this procedure, and that being the case it would also be safer to have the more common procedure done at this stage unless they start training people in ovariectomies.

[LisaCC]

Just wondering for the breeders on here. Would you home a male pup if the puppy owner agreed to vasectomy but not full castration?

[OSoSwift]

Just wondering for the breeders on here. Would you home a male pup if the puppy owner agreed to vasectomy but not full castration?

Yes

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Depends how you live. I've had a truckload of entire male dogs come through my house and it's never been an easy experience - I'm rescuing them and sometimes cannot get them done the first day or two and it's always a stress.

I don't want dogs peeing everywhere, I don't want dominance over my other dogs or sexual interest in my females.

As for having undesexed males together, I wouldn't do that either, it can lead to fights - but I acknowledge that of course there are exceptions to this.

I also never want to have the experience of having to euthanase a beautiful male dog that had a peritoneal hernia that had gone too far - this is mostly found in male dogs of 7+ years who have remained entire.

I lived with an entire dog in the UK, my first ever dog, until he developed testicular cancer at around 5 yrs of age and had to be urgently desexed. I wouldn't leave it undone again - unless I was showing a dog of course and that is pretty much guaranteed never to happen.

Edited March 27, 2014 by dogmad

[Little Gifts]

I used the term 'desexable pets' in an earlier post. I hate the concept of living in a nanny state - it drives me crazy. But by using that term I was referring to your average suburban backyard dog who neither had a medical or a professional reason to stay in tact. They were not show dogs, working dogs, from exceptional breed lines, etc. As with any rules or laws I assume there always need to be exemptions and it could be that many DOLers who work in the canine industry in some way would in fact meet exemption requirements.

I know it is possible to raise an undesexed dog without any accidental pregnancies because my sister and her bitch have lived here with me for around 7 years and we have not even come close to an oops event. It's not even that hard. But sadly, so many people put so little effort in their entire males still wander at large and their undesexed bitches still become pregnant and they still pretend they have no clue how it happened. These litters were not planned and often little effort goes in to matching these puppies with the correct new owners. As a result, it is probable that some of these puppies will end up neglected, poorly behaved, unwanted, unclaimed or dumped at some point. So if we can remove the potential of unwanted pregnancies in this higher risk group we have to be positively impacting on future homeless and pts rates. It might also mean there are less FTGH undesexed dogs getting snaffled up by BYBers.

Go look in the rescue threads at all the beautiful dogs who have no options because of how irresponsible human's behave. We can't be trusted to do the right thing. I just want to tip the balance back to having less dogs at risk. I would hope that in turn creates a culture where all dogs seem more valuable and less disposable. I'm not sure how you change what is happening now otherwise.

[pebbles]

My post was just my personal preference. I'm not likely to breed any litters again but would have to have another think if ever I did. I can see the need to desex some pets, both pure and cross, as there are some people who just don't care and/or are looking to make that 'quid'. That person who started the designer dog fad has a lot to answer for

[Melsmells]

Hi, a newby here

Ive had a read of this thread

We are in the process of buying a puppy, while I understand some breeders want to desex male pups before they send them off into the big wide world, if Im understanding correctly there is also health issues (potentially) for doing this? ie incorrect development

I guess its a tough situation, that you dont want to risk your dog being bred with in the future, but doesnt it also mean that you are (depending what you read and believe) doing this to the detriment of the dogs overall health?

We are wanting an entire male, not for breeding, but purely because most of the people Ive spoken to have said desexing too young causes growth issues...and yet many breeders wont sell entire males

Im a little confused ...do you walk away from breeders refusing to sell entire male pups? Or are they still being ethical?

Edited April 1, 2014 by Melsmells

[sheena]

When I bought my entire male (border collie) it was of the understanding that he would be on the limited register ie. not for breeding or showing & I actually signed an agreement saying that I would get him desexed. He was about 16 months old when I had him desexed & the breeder was happy with this :) The same thing with my female border collie. I wouldn't buy from a breeder that didn't trust me to do the right thing. I certainly wouldn't buy a pup that had been desexed at a very young age.

[cannibalgoldfish]

My personal experience is entire male dog pee smells so much worse.

[Melsmells]

Sheena that makes a lot of sense and solves both problems doesnt it!!

Might have to investigate this further with whichever breeder I choose :D

[mfch]

I think it really is a quite divisive issue between breeders and buyers.

I can see the view of responsible breeders who want to stop any BYB intent with their dogs.

However, as a responsible buyer I would not buy a puppy who was desexed at such a young age.

I think that breeder's have to put due effort into their puppy screening (and many do!) and then trust that the buyer a) is not going to screw them over and b) wants to do the best they can by their puppy and therefore does not find desexing at eight weeks appropriate.

I recently turned down one breeder because she would not sell me an eight week old puppy unless she desexed him first and was going to have him desexed two days before I picked him up. So the poor mite would have been recovering from surgery as well as adjusting to a new home. So I turned her down. This breeder also wouldn't reserve a puppy for me or let me choose one ... she said I could show up with the money and take one if they were still there not a great way to treat a potential buyer.

The breeder I am getting my puppy from leaves it in my hands but advises after 12 months of age so he can grow up first, she did say however that it was entirely up to me because I had to live with him! She said with her last litter she left it in the hands of the buyers- and all six puppies were desexed by the time they were eight months old. My breeder- who is fabulous- trusts her buyers, she screened them, she's gotten to know us and has treated us as if we are joining the family rather than with suspicion. Makes a big difference I think, and I also think it's a much better way to ensure you get good buyers and that they adhere to your wishes, rather than treating buyers with suspicion and refusing to let puppies go until desexed etc.

[Melsmells]

I spoke at length again with the breeder I am 99% sure Im going to end up buying a puppy from

She also likes to desex later for pet homes, but registers on the Ltd register to cover against breeding (I think)

To me this sounds like a fabulous idea...best of both worlds I guess?

Ive heard of others repaying $XXX when the new owners desex the animal after the appropriate age...so they basically pay show dog price for a dog on the ltd register, and after the animal is desexed at 18-24 months, the breeder refunds the difference between a show dog and a pet dog??

So there are ways around it, that work for both parties

Im sure you still get questionable individuals that do the wrong thing, and ruin it for those of up (breeders and buyers) trying to do the right thing by the dog

Edited April 3, 2014 by Melsmells