Feeding Advice

[Elise+Hudson]

Hey guys,

I have recently been advised that maybe trying a raw food diet might be the way to go with my Aussie. He is a great dog, and has been doing so well in training, but have been having problems when he gets over-excited and overstimulated he just loses his brain!

He has also been going through a strange behavioural period these past 2 weeks.

He is turning 3 years in June, and all of a sudden has started growling at noises or people when he hears them from inside my room, but also he growled at a dog today while I had him on lead at obedience which is so uncharacteristic of him.

I am fairly upset by the whole situation and I am wondering if food may be playing a role, as up till now he has been on almost 100% dry food with omega 3,6 and 9 supplement.

I have been looking into a Tryptophan supplement to see if this might be of use?

He is an entire male, but I don't think this would suddenly be a hormonal issue at this age. He has also been socialised and trained in group situations since he was a pup and have never had any issues.

He has in the past few months been run at, growled and bitten by numerous other dogs which I think might also be playing a role.. but it none of these situations has Hudson actually growled or eyeballed another dog, in all cases he had his back turned to the other dog.

I think other dogs find him hard to read with his crazy eyes and no tail, but I am really trying hard to find some answers as to how I might be able to help this situation.

I feel as though if he didn't get quite so riled up and excited so easily, a lot of this would be less likely to happen!

So any ideas on diets? Or links to other threads which may be able to help?

I love him dearly, and would really like to be able to keep taking him to training.. but if I can't get this settled down it will be back to showing and long walks for us as it seems to be training which has him at his worst.

Sorry for the rambling.. Have just had another horrible night at training and I am clutching at straws to find an answer.

[persephone]

It sounds uncomfortable for you ... I suggest you get him assessed by a behaviourist first ......it may be that he has now reached maturity ...and because of his nature is more reactive ....?

[LisaCC]

If it's quite sudden my first thought would be a vet check to make sure he hasn't injured himself and is in some pain.

I do wonder if the lack of tail in Aussies make them harder to read by other dogs.

[Elise+Hudson]

Thanks guys, I am a Vet myself Lisa so have been keeping a close eye on him and he has not changed at all recently with his health.

He has always been an overexcited dog, and running off to visit other dogs is not unusual for him - I have been working hard to stop this.

It is just now that he has started becoming protective as well I worry that things might escalate into aggression.

Right now we are not at that point so I want to work with it.

By behaviourist what exactly do you mean? I have been discussing with trainers and none seem to be overly concerned by his behaviour, they agree that he is just a friendly, over exuberant dog. Not sure if there are other behaviourists close by I could talk to.

Still thinking that trying a raw diet might be of some use? Or might make me feel better while I try to sort out these issues. For now I will stop taking him to obedience and possibly also the agility training where he was attacked as he has been acting up there as well and stick with the one night training a week.

I will go looking for some raw feeding resources.

[Erny]

What is your training method/s? Do you incorporate or use "training in drive"? In the absence of medical issues, I tend to find that dogs who work from their hind brain and not their front brain is generally because they are under-stimulated (mentally speaking) by the handler and over-stimulated towards other distractions which ultimately provide the satiation the dog needs and searches for. That in itself becomes self-perpetuating and leads to exacerbation, due to the self-reinforcement the satiation of drive and fun the dog receives.

I love working with dogs who are hyped. It means the mental energy is already there and all I need to do is channel that towards behaviours that I want and which, as a result of the dog learning that drive satisfaction comes from that training, the dog ends up really enjoying and begging for more. Easier than working with a 'flat' dog and needing first to tease out the "drive energy" I'm looking for to be able to use it to training advantage.

Either way, a raw diet is something that I'm inclined to recommend for any dog, behaviour issue or not, so there would be no harm and potentially only good which can come about from trying it. I do confess that I noticed a 'settling' in my own boy, who is rambunctious by nature and not an easy dog to work with in the initial stages, when I switched him to the whole raw balanced diet I now have him on. It is not the be all and end all of course - but if the diet the dog is on is not right it can affect behaviour just as what we know as the "red cordial" diet can affect children. So yes …. I like to bring things down to simple meat and vegetable balance proteins as the bases on which I build a diet on from there.

Also, your dog is 3yo. A fairly impressionable age and one where dogs feel they should be flexing their muscles, so to speak. That's fair enough, but coupled with the bad experiences he's had, you might find that the behaviour you're now seeing was imminent and inevitable IF your dog does not understand that deferring to your choices is the way to go. How we teach that to our dogs is based in the dog trusting our ability to manage any and all situations the dog otherwise feels uncomfortable in. And how we teach that trust is by what and how we demonstrate in and around the home in our day to day ordinary interactions. At least, that's where it starts from, and it goes upwards from there.

So all or any of these things might be things for you to consider and explore.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Erny

[Staff'n'Toller]

Thanks guys, I am a Vet myself Lisa so have been keeping a close eye on him and he has not changed at all recently with his health.

He has always been an overexcited dog, and running off to visit other dogs is not unusual for him - I have been working hard to stop this.

It is just now that he has started becoming protective as well I worry that things might escalate into aggression.

Right now we are not at that point so I want to work with it.

By behaviourist what exactly do you mean? I have been discussing with trainers and none seem to be overly concerned by his behaviour, they agree that he is just a friendly, over exuberant dog. Not sure if there are other behaviourists close by I could talk to.

Still thinking that trying a raw diet might be of some use? Or might make me feel better while I try to sort out these issues. For now I will stop taking him to obedience and possibly also the agility training where he was attacked as he has been acting up there as well and stick with the one night training a week.

I will go looking for some raw feeding resources.

The acting up might be anxiety based due to 'not knowing which dog is going to rush him next'.

I didn't know how much an entire dog with an upright stance and trotty gait with tail up can be a target for other dogs. Seems very common in Aussies and also Tollers.

You may need to reconsider which situations you place him in training wise, certainly while he remains intact.

Since you have a BVSc. you should be able to get into the AVA Behaviour Special Interest Group - I think they have a forum?

[Salukifan]

He has always been an overexcited dog, and running off to visit other dogs is not unusual for him - I have been working hard to stop this.

It is just now that he has started becoming protective as well I worry that things might escalate into aggression.

Right now we are not at that point so I want to work with it.

How successful have you been at stopping it? If the behaviour keeps occurring, you may have to keep him more firmly under control, on lead at all times if necessary. Friendly and over exuberant are really just excuses for him blowing you off. Who's running the show here? I have a name for friendly and over excited dogs that ignore their owners to run up to mine. I call them "arseholes". Time to stop that behaviour and if you can't control it then he stays on lead. Don't keep providing him with more opportunities to self reward by ignoring you.

I tell people that the time to get their dog's attention is when their dog notices the other dog, NOT when its 20 metres away and running up to it. Timing is important.

Why do you think him growling at another dog is being "protective"?

It sounds to me like he finds the training environment very stimulating. He's now a mature entire male, with some history of bad experiences with other dogs, he's been allowed a pretty free rein and he's prepared to warn dogs off (which is all growling is). YOU need to act before he needs to and what he's saying is "I want more space".

I'd not panic but I'd be keeping him away from dogs he doesn't know and I'd be really taking tight control of him in environments (like training) where you know he's highly aroused and therefore likely to be more reactive. Don't be complacent and don't expect him to just deal with dogs in his space. Your aim should be to make sure that there is never another reason for him to feel like he has to warn other dogs off.

I'm probably going to be flamed for this but Australian Shepherds feature quite frequently in ANKC suspensions for dog aggression. I think they benefit from very clear boundaries and tight control. The higher drive dogs are NOT teddy bears and need to be treated like the bold working dogs they were bred to be. They certainly weren't bred to be a pack dog.

I think a consult with a decent trainer/behaviourist experienced with higher drive dogs would be a good thing. Sounds to me like you have a bit more dog than you bargained for. A raw diet won't hurt but I think you need to step up your management of this dog too.

You can start by ceasing to make excuses for his behaviour. "too friendly" "over exuberant" and "over excited" are excuses. When you view those behaviours in terms like "disobedient" "rude" and "ignores me" they sound a lot less tolerable. Deal with the behaviour, not the excuse for it.

If I sound a bit harsh its because I'd like you to grab these issues and deal with them before your dog does what another dog very similar to him in temperament did and does end up in an aggression incident.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Rebanne]

Haredown Whippets excellent post!

[Starkehre]

Of course difficult to say without knowing the dog, but it sounds to me like his genetic temperament/nerve coping with over stimulation (as well as residual issues with being aggressed upon) as he is coming of age.

He is definitely at an age for such things to be occurring if the recipe is there.

I doubt changing his diet will have any difference whatsoever.

I really hope you can get on top of his problems.

[Dogsfevr]

Also having no tail means nothing

How does he behave with a different handler who you trust ??

It could be a combo of your handling .mixed signals & dog not knowing where it fits.

[Nekhbet]

I agree with Haredown Whippets. He's an entire male, he's now fully mature and he's showing it. Diet has little really to do with his excitability unless you're feeding colours and preservatives then I would look into it.

[Elise+Hudson]

Thanks guys I will look into talking to another trainer - I am thinking maybe trying to do some distance work with Steve from K9 pro, as really liked the seminar I went to last year with him.

I know I am making excuses for him and need to work out this behaviour, It is just upsetting to me to see this now after spending so much of my time and energy into trying to do the right thing in the past in regards to training etc.

If someone else takes him to work with him and I am around, he spins and pulls at the end of the lead to try and get back to me, or jumps up on the person. He is horrible to work with anyone else, at least for me most of the time he does what I ask of him.

With him being protective I meant more of the growling when he hears noises outside the house, as he never does this when he is outside, only with me in the house.

I have seen Aussies with aggression issues before, but he has shown no other inclination towards aggression at all.

Don't get me wrong.. I am not trying to fix him with food. I am just running out of ideas as people I have asked for help with him in the past have simply said "he is a puppy" and "he is excited/happy". But he is NOT a puppy anymore, and I have such hopes for us as a team... I don't want to just retire him to being a house dog. I am willing to try whatever it takes.

[Rebanne]

Don't get me wrong.. I am not trying to fix him with food. I am just running out of ideas as people I have asked for help with him in the past have simply said "he is a puppy" and "he is excited/happy". But he is NOT a puppy anymore, and I have such hopes for us as a team... I don't want to just retire him to being a house dog. I am willing to try whatever it takes.

I don't know why you think you still can't work as a team. I know someone who had a fairly aggressive dog (other dogs), it was her first, which she was given as untrained 12 months old who was on her way to the pound, and got a whole bunch of different titles on her dog by managing the dog, by always being aware of her surrounds, what dogs were near hers etc. That dog was amazing with what she could do, amazing. Work was everything to her.

My nearly 3 year old entire male is very sweet, very biddable, and I was very surprised at the first time he growled at another dog, funnily enough it was his brother when we caught up at a show. I accepted it for what it was, an entire dog saying p*ss off. I didn't panic and think OMG aggressive dog must never take him out again. I continue to take him to shows, we continue to share our space with other dogs, sometimes strangers, often entire males and nothing happens. But I do not allow greetings between male of his own size, he is fine with smaller or larger, he's not stupid, one he could win a fight against, the other he would lose based on size so he has no reason to challenge either. I also know I could have peace and harmony at home between any other normal entire male dog at home within a very short space of time.

But he is an entire male dog and on the whole most entire male animals do not appreciate other, strange, entire males around them. Part of the pack yes, out there in the big wide world no.

[persephone]

With him being protective I meant more of the growling when he hears noises outside the house

this can also be a fear/uncertainty reaction - he is indoors/cannot assess the danger level ... so the growl is based on this uncertainty .......maybe.

From your posting, it sounds as if he does need a decent assessment , so you can then know exactly in what direction to head.

JANE HARPER is often mentioned favourably on D O L ..maybe contact her?

[wuffles]

I didn't see the incidents you are talking about BUT... my older Aussie is now 4 years old and she is a LOT less tolerant than she was when she was younger. Once she hit 2-3 her demeanour changed quite a bit, she became the fun police and decided that she cannot deal with even mildly rude dog behaviour. She will often growl at other dogs if they get in her space or if they are acting hyper. I don't see it as a huge issue in our case, as she's happy and social in her interactions with known and friendly dogs. I am quite good at knowing whether she will like or dislike a certain dog so we haven't had problems :) I just keep her away from dogs who will overreact if they get a slight growl, as her reactions aren't over the top. She just doesn't like rudeness (although her definition can be quite broad at times)!

What was the other dog doing that he growled at? Are you sure that the other dog didn't eyeball him/show bad body language? They can be a lot more perceptive than us.

Remember they are working breeds after all and many Aussies have a strong guarding type instinct that doesn't kick in until they are a bit older.

My Aussie pup (7 months) will sit at the front window and growl if he sees people walking past the house. Yet he's friendly with everyone he meets, happy for visitors to come into the house if invited, etc. I don't see it as a problem.

As far as growling at stuff in the house, I would try acting like he is "silly", taking him to show him that there's nothing there to be worried about. Act like it's not a big deal. Something may have spooked him and he might just need some reassurance.

[Glen]

Your dog sounds very much like my ACD some years ago. About the age of 3 she started to react very much like your dog. She too had been repeatedly attacked at obedience training. She thus learnt to "get in first" with a growl and sometimes a bit of a lunge if the other dog came too close. We went on to train and compete in agility, just always being careful to keep our distance from other dogs. No dramas while off lead training or competing as she was completely focused on what she was doing with me during those times. I just knew her limitations and managed her behaviour, keeping a close eye out for other dogs at all times.

[Salukifan]

Don't get me wrong.. I am not trying to fix him with food. I am just running out of ideas as people I have asked for help with him in the past have simply said "he is a puppy" and "he is excited/happy". But he is NOT a puppy anymore, and I have such hopes for us as a team... I don't want to just retire him to being a house dog. I am willing to try whatever it takes.

You need better advice!!! Maybe people don't want to worry you or they genuinely don't know what they are seeing.

I see no reason why you'd have to retire him. He's an entire male that needs more management and probably a higher level of focus and obedience than he's had up till now but he doesn't sound much different to many dogs competing at shows and trials. You make sure he gets the space he needs, you accept that he is not going to greet strange dogs (particularly other mature entire males) as friends and you manage accordingly.

I was out on a walk with a Whippet acquaintance a few months ago and she seemed suprised that I called and leashed my entire boys as strange dogs approached. I don't think it had occured to her that they might not accept other dogs as "friends". Welcome to the world of entires - you manage them differently and more closely than other dogs and that way you don't get incidents.

[JulesP]

I would want my dogs to growl if they heard a strange noise outside. Not sure why you are viewing that as a negative?

[wuffles]

Just wanted to put the wording from the standard out there as I think it sums up Aussies very well and may give you some insight into his behaviour (which IMO is completely normal but if you feel needs more management then take some of the previous advice on board):

"The Australian Shepherd is an intelligent working dog of strong herding and guarding instincts. He is a loyal companion and has the stamina to work all day."

[Nekhbet]

Why don't you pop up to Gold Coast Schutzhund club for some advice and training.