Stuck In A Training Rut...

[dididog]

Just a bit of an update.... I have gone to two obedience classes now and it has resparked my interest in training! I've pretty much gotten rid of formal training seesions at home and just do little things around the house, on a walk, in the car etc. and if we do an actual training session I keep it short with play to break it up a bit!

I really like my obedience club, it's well run and you can tell they enjoy doing what they do... one of the the trainers we had to day was making a few annoying absolutist comments like dogs don't like being patted on the head (she was referring to an owner patting her dog on the head, not a stranger) and that all dogs love hard chew toys and have to chew for 3 hours a day or they are bored. I'm just taking that sort of stuff with a grain of salt and paying attention to the actual training stuff.

Also the trainer (or assistant trainer??? not really sure what her position was) said I should get a front attatching harness for her pulling. I have some reservations about this because

1) Didi is not a puller on walks, sure if she sees something interesting she might pull toward it but she doesn't then pull you down the street toward what ever it is, she walks beside me nicely (I'd say at least 80% of walk an a very relaxed loose lead)with management and corrections and I wouldnt expect anything more from a puppy her age, as we get better at distraction training the occasional pulling toward interesting things will subside. The pulling that the trainer saw was the trainer walking up to Didi and saying hello and giving her a treat for sitting nicely and then walking away and Didi tried to follow her and sometimes if the dog next to us tried to approach Didi, she'd pull on the lead to go over to the dog but she was not towing me across the field to get at other dogs or straining at the lead constantly.

2) The club sells the harnesses so I don't know if there might be some ulterior motive as pretty much every dog that pulled a few times (to be expected in a beginners class) was told they should get a harness

3) Since she walks nicely on lead and only really pulls in big open spaces around other dogs (at obedience club pretty much) I feel like she won't get the idea and that it will just become a band aid solution. Personally if I wanted to use a training aid I'd like to use a check chain or martingale as for when things really aren't getting through to Didi she responds better to a negative/aversive (not sure if that's the right word) response but our club doesn't allow them and even though I am fairly sure I understand how to use them, I'd much rather someone showing me than relying on the internet/reading.

If you can sell me on the harness idea then maybe I'll consider it but at the moment I really don't want to use one.

[Salukifan]

If you can sell me on the harness idea then maybe I'll consider it but at the moment I really don't want to use one.

Then don't. For the life of me I do not understand WHY people want to put this gear on their dogs when TRAINING is what is required to stop a dog pulling.

Most front attach harnesses cross a dog's chest, restricting their front end movement. Why you'd want walk a dog that cannot fully extend its frontl legs beats me.

[dididog]

If you can sell me on the harness idea then maybe I'll consider it but at the moment I really don't want to use one.

Then don't. For the life of me I do not understand WHY people want to put this gear on their dogs when TRAINING is what is required to stop a dog pulling.

Most front attach harnesses cross a dog's chest, restricting their front end movement. Why you'd want walk a dog that cannot fully extend its frontl legs beats me.

I'm kind of just wondering if there's something about the harnesses I am missing/if my perception of them is wrong but that's how I feel about training aids being prescribed to everyone. I could understand perhaps if your dog is completely unmanageable and you've tried training for a while but Didi's pulling isn't super concerning for me and I'd rather see it through with training first.

[Salukifan]

If you can sell me on the harness idea then maybe I'll consider it but at the moment I really don't want to use one.

Then don't. For the life of me I do not understand WHY people want to put this gear on their dogs when TRAINING is what is required to stop a dog pulling.

Most front attach harnesses cross a dog's chest, restricting their front end movement. Why you'd want walk a dog that cannot fully extend its frontl legs beats me.

I'm kind of just wondering if there's something about the harnesses I am missing/if my perception of them is wrong but that's how I feel about training aids being prescribed to everyone. I could understand perhaps if your dog is completely unmanageable and you've tried training for a while but Didi's pulling isn't super concerning for me and I'd rather see it through with training first.

If they went on, were used to manage the issue while it was corrected and came off again, I'd call the training aids.

But mostly it seems, they aren't. They go on and stay on. They are used to manage only.

[Erny]

Most front attach harnesses cross a dog's chest, restricting their front end movement. Why you'd want walk a dog that cannot fully extend its frontl legs beats me.

I agree with the above. Every tool/equipment has its place and I have employed both harness and head-collar (not simultaneously and not necessarily to same dog) from time to time. But I have used these for a specific "control" purpose and reasons whilst other training methods are engaged to train the dog away from behaviours which are undesirable. Part of what I'm not keen on with both items but in this instance especially harnesses, is the affect it has on the dog's natural gait and skeletal alignment. That has a negative affect on the dog that isn't necessarily immediately evident but with long term and "ignorant" use can cause problems to the dog's body that may last for a long time and possibly ever.

These sorts of things are "anecdotal" as the impact doesn't show up as a direct correlation to these sorts of training aids, and consequently often (quite conveniently for those who push them in preference to other training aids for whatever their reasoning might be) fall under the radar of causing physical harm. Regardless, we should be aware of the potential impact and if these items are used, should be used with empathy to that end and with the mind-set of temporary use and as a means to an end. Just as any training aid should be used.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Erny

[hankdog]

The first trainer I saw sold me one of these, she fitted it and was adamant that if he lunged he'd be pulled to me. Luckily I always double leash, he lunged was swung around and the whole thing pulled off. When I queried her on it she blamed my dog for being out of control...... Um yes hence I needed help!

I've been through a fair few devices and nothing really beats consistent training. I needed the help of a prong up front but once we were a bit under control I really prefer the flexibility of a martingale and being able to moderate the level of correction.

Steve Courtney has a good article on the web about ten things not to do with your dog. Don't ask your dog to do something it doesn't know is so important. I really wanted Jake to know I didn't want him to go for other dogs but without fueling the fire by using a painful aversive that whilst they would divert his attention from the dog they wouldn't really let him think because essentially they needed to be full on to override his reactivity.

Enter my present trainer and training the wonder word "uh-uh". We trained this on his obedience work, just coupled with minor leash pops when he would give us the finger. (He's a nutter so that's quite often). I don't really know what he thinks, try again, do something else or no but he learned to offer a different behavior when he got that word. So if I ask him to sit and he just lies staring at me he gets "uh-uh" and a few seconds to change his mind, then a little leash pop if he still doesn't comply. It's aversive but has given me a moderate way to tell him to do something else.

Mind you my petite trainer uses it so well I nearly sit too, I have to work on getting real grunt into it.

[hankdog]

The first trainer I saw sold me one of these, she fitted it and was adamant that if he lunged he'd be pulled to me. Luckily I always double leash, he lunged was swung around and the whole thing pulled off. When I queried her on it she blamed my dog for being out of control...... Um yes hence I needed help!

I've been through a fair few devices and nothing really beats consistent training. I needed the help of a prong up front but once we were a bit under control I really prefer the flexibility of a martingale and being able to moderate the level of correction.

Steve Courtney has a good article on the web about ten things not to do with your dog. Don't ask your dog to do something it doesn't know is so important. I really wanted Jake to know I didn't want him to go for other dogs but without fueling the fire by using a painful aversive that whilst they would divert his attention from the dog they wouldn't really let him think because essentially they needed to be full on to override his reactivity.

Enter my present trainer and training the wonder word "uh-uh". We trained this on his obedience work, just coupled with minor leash pops when he would give us the finger. (He's a nutter so that's quite often). I don't really know what he thinks, try again, do something else or no but he learned to offer a different behavior when he got that word. So if I ask him to sit and he just lies staring at me he gets "uh-uh" and a few seconds to change his mind, then a little leash pop if he still doesn't comply. It's aversive but has given me a moderate way to tell him to do something else.

Mind you my petite trainer uses it so well I nearly sit too, I have to work on getting real grunt into it.

[dididog]

Hmm I really think I'm going to pick up a martingale this week. The way I've trained Didi to walk (may or may not be right but it is doing the job) is to do a few checks (i used to ride horses so just do what I would do with a half halt)paired with an "uh-uh" before she would really start to pull or hit the end her lead and when she comes back to my side and the lead relaxes she gets a treat and praise. We don't have to do this much anymore but I still treat and praise her when she's just walking nice in general. She's worked out that pressure on the lead is not what I want and most of the time if I miss the right correction time and she hits the end of her lead she will slow down anyway. I don't like using the flat collar doing this though as it just pulls on the front of her throat and I is not a good collar for my technique but I am scared to use a check chain and use it wrong so I've done lots of reading and it seems like a limited slip/martingale would work well for us on walks, especially as I plan to up our distractions gradually now that she has low level distraction walking down pretty well.

Another thing swaying me towards the martingale is that Didi has so much excess skin on her neck and a droopy dewlap (i think that's what it's called??) and if I do the collar up tight enough that it's doing the job right, it indents her skin/digs into her rolls but if I have it at a tightness that doesn't interfere with her loose skin, then it is not tight enough for walking and she could slip out.

Am I going down the right path here?

[Erny]

Another thing swaying me towards the martingale is that Didi has so much excess skin on her neck and a droopy dewlap (i think that's what it's called??) and if I do the collar up tight enough that it's doing the job right, it indents her skin/digs into her rolls but if I have it at a tightness that doesn't interfere with her loose skin, then it is not tight enough for walking and she could slip out.

Am I going down the right path here?

In terms of correction collars, I quite like a good quality martingale if no more is required and the dog responds and learns from its proper use. But a martingale needs to be fitted properly too. I see a lot of people using martingales that have them fitted too loosely and as a result, in effect they might as well be working off a flat collar. The martingale should be fitted higher on the dog's neck than a general flat collar would sit and should fit snugly. Many people suggest training collars fit very high on the dog's neck (directly behind the dog's ears). Personally I don't prefer this wherever possible this can be avoided, as this is the area where the dog's wind-pipe is the most exposed. BUT I agree that if a dog has excessive loose skin, a martingale may not have to fit as tightly as a flat collar for the mere purpose of not being able to slip it as the martingale (if fitted properly) will tighten, helping to prevent being slipped.

Hope that makes sense.

ETA: If using the check as you would a "half-halt" with horses works, then that's good. Less is more, in my books. But you do need to be looking for the dog not only responding to those so-to-speak "half-halt" checks at the time they are delivered, but also for the dog to be putting tension on the leash less and less frequently - otherwise the dog is not really learning to walk on a loose leash but is learning to respond off the "half-halt" cues you're giving. Of course, as you've mentioned, positive rewards play a huge part in training.

I prefer to think slightly in reverse of what is commonly stated :

Give the dog positive reward when he's giving the loose lead and check via the leash when he's not. (i.e. rather than thinking in the opposite order.) Although to many that might seem and mean the same either way, I find it quite amazing how the order of things we think in subconsciously affects the emphasis we place on what. I also make mental note in each session of how much positive reward the dog has received compared to how much correction the dog has received. If each could be weighed up in terms of pounds/kilograms, the positive should ideally far outweigh the corrections, and the mores the better.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Erny

[dididog]

Another thing swaying me towards the martingale is that Didi has so much excess skin on her neck and a droopy dewlap (i think that's what it's called??) and if I do the collar up tight enough that it's doing the job right, it indents her skin/digs into her rolls but if I have it at a tightness that doesn't interfere with her loose skin, then it is not tight enough for walking and she could slip out.

Am I going down the right path here?

In terms of correction collars, I quite like a good quality martingale if no more is required and the dog responds and learns from its proper use. But a martingale needs to be fitted properly too. I see a lot of people using martingales that have them fitted too loosely and as a result, in effect they might as well be working off a flat collar. The martingale should be fitted higher on the dog's neck than a general flat collar would sit and should fit snugly. Many people suggest training collars fit very high on the dog's neck (directly behind the dog's ears). Personally I don't prefer this wherever possible this can be avoided, as this is the area where the dog's wind-pipe is the most exposed. BUT I agree that if a dog has excessive loose skin, a martingale may not have to fit as tightly as a flat collar for the mere purpose of not being able to slip it as the martingale (if fitted properly) will tighten, helping to prevent being slipped.

Hope that makes sense.

ETA: If using the check as you would a "half-halt" with horses works, then that's good. Less is more, in my books. But you do need to be looking for the dog not only responding to those so-to-speak "half-halt" checks at the time they are delivered, but also for the dog to be putting tension on the leash less and less frequently - otherwise the dog is not really learning to walk on a loose leash but is learning to respond off the "half-halt" cues you're giving. Of course, as you've mentioned, positive rewards play a huge part in training.

I prefer to think slightly in reverse of what is commonly stated :

Give the dog positive reward when he's giving the loose lead and check via the leash when he's not. (i.e. rather than thinking in the opposite order.) Although to many that might seem and mean the same either way, I find it quite amazing how the order of things we think in subconsciously affects the emphasis we place on what. I also make mental note in each session of how much positive reward the dog has received compared to how much correction the dog has received. If each could be weighed up in terms of pounds/kilograms, the positive should ideally far outweigh the corrections, and the mores the better.

Thanks Erny, it's nice to have a bit of confirmation from people who know more than I do about this. I am taking the fact that Didi is beginning to stop herself when she reaches the end of the lead/feels pressure as a sign she is working out that loose=good. I mix it up with the checks as well by calling her name/using the look command and when she looks at me/comes to my side gets rewarded but at the moment this only works when there is nothing distracting around and she is just walking a bit ahead of me and I'd like her attention and to be walking closer. For when the distraction is a bit higher (eg a bird, someone walking past) and I know asking for the look command is unreasonable I prefer a check as I know this will get through to her. Training your first dog is literally the most daunting thing ever and fraught with constant self doubt and there are SO many conflicting opinions on literally everything and people can be quite belittling that sometimes I am nervous to stick to my guns but so far Didi isn't a monumental screw up so I think I'm doing alright :laugh:

[Erny]

Don't worry, Terri S - you're putting enough thought into it to safely say that you're being conscientious and when people do that, I tend to find that mistakes (which do happen) aren't that monumental and our dogs (bless them and thank goodness) are very forgiving for all the wrong that we humans do. So relax, find the rhythm and look for progress. If there's progress, then it is working. Don't be too nervous - instead, enjoy the training-journey. It's fun, even to recognise its ups and downs and our little goof-ups along the way :) .

[dididog]

Bought a martingale collar today... worked wonders! She already had the concept but the martingale just worked so much better and was much kinder on her neck, by the end of the walk just the beginning of the tightening paired with the correction word stopped her from pulling.

Shame they won't let me use it at obedience and keep trying to shove the front attaching harness down my throat. The same pushy assistant trainer from the other week was going on about how much kinder it'll be for her and that a flat collar will hurt her... 10 seconds later a berner puppy the same size as Didi in one pulled forward, got its front leg pulled out from underneath it and fell on its face...

It's actually kind of alarming that 80% of the class was in front attaching harnesses and those who weren't were being recommended one.

[Erny]

Harnesses alter and/or hinder free movement. They are not as 'kind' or 'aversive free' as some PP trainers/organisations would make out them to be. A martingale is a 'soft' style correction collar and like any correction collar used properly, are as kind or kinder to the dog especially when learning is faster and easier for the dog. Worth switching schools, especially if the one you're at don't or are unable to give you proper coaching on the good use of a correction collar?

[dididog]

Worth switching schools, especially if the one you're at don't or are unable to give you proper coaching on the good use of a correction collar?

The thing is I really like the school and the actual trainers, ie. the ones running the class are really good. It's only the trainers assisting on the periphery who have suggested a front attach harness and even then it's only this one who's being pushy. I'll consider asking them or just rocking up with the martingale and switching to a flat collar if they really disagree. It's doing less harm than the flat collar does on her neck and I'm sure since most of these trainers are older and have been in dog training for a while that they would know how to use one.

There was a mother and daughter next to me with a pretty rowdy oodle pup and the lady spent quite a bit of time with them and said the 97% of dogs don't like being patted on the head thing again and I kind of tuned out for a bit but heard her telling them to check out her website (not the club's website). It makes me feel a bit weird as all the trainers are volunteers but it looks like she's using the club to drum up business :/

[Erny]

The thing is I really like the school and the actual trainers, ie. the ones running the class are really good.

That's fair enough, Terri S. But if something's working well for a dog, the trainers should be able to recognise that, so hopefully they'll accept the good that's happening, embrace and help you with it.

There was a mother and daughter next to me with a pretty rowdy oodle pup and the lady spent quite a bit of time with them and said the 97% of dogs don't like being patted on the head thing again ...

Actually, to a certain extent I kind of agree. Many dogs find stroking down their bodies or a hand ruffle on the side of the neck more rewarding than a "pat" on the head. Much does depend on how the "pat" is delivered, and the circumstance though. My dog will appreciate a finger ruffle to the top of his head when we're (e.g.) sitting and waiting at lights to cross the road (well, he's sitting, I'm standing ... lol), or when we're sharing a 'cuddle' moment and I gently move my thumb over his stop towards the back of his head. But when we're in active training, a long but swift(isn) stroke or rub down the side of his body is what he prefers. They're all different though and I know of dogs who enjoy a bit of a ruffle at the head. In general, however, I find it can be off-putting and for some a bit too dominating (and I tend to find it can deflate drive, if that's the method being used to train in).

Just my thoughts and experience - not intending to debate on it. IMO, it really is a "to each his own" and if a dog shows he doesn't mind and/or enjoys it ...... kudos :) .

[persephone]

The thing is I really like the school and the actual trainers, ie. the ones running the class are really good.

That's fair enough, Terri S. But if something's working well for a dog, the trainers should be able to recognise that, so hopefully they'll accept the good that's happening, embrace and help you with it.

There was a mother and daughter next to me with a pretty rowdy oodle pup and the lady spent quite a bit of time with them and said the 97% of dogs don't like being patted on the head thing again ...

Actually, to a certain extent I kind of agree. Many dogs find stroking down their bodies or a hand ruffle on the side of the neck more rewarding than a "pat" on the head. Much does depend on how the "pat" is delivered, and the circumstance though. My dog will appreciate a finger ruffle to the top of his head when we're (e.g.) sitting and waiting at lights to cross the road (well, he's sitting, I'm standing ... lol), or when we're sharing a 'cuddle' moment and I gently move my thumb over his stop towards the back of his head. But when we're in active training, a long but swift(isn) stroke or rub down the side of his body is what he prefers. They're all different though and I know of dogs who enjoy a bit of a ruffle at the head. In general, however, I find it can be off-putting and for some a bit too dominating (and I tend to find it can deflate drive, if that's the method being used to train in).

Just my thoughts and experience - not intending to debate on it. IMO, it really is a "to each his own" and if a dog shows he doesn't mind and/or enjoys it ...... kudos :) .

I am of the 'please don't pat the dog on its head' belief as well ;) Under the chin ..or as erny describes :) is what I use mostly .. .

[dididog]

The thing is I really like the school and the actual trainers, ie. the ones running the class are really good.

That's fair enough, Terri S. But if something's working well for a dog, the trainers should be able to recognise that, so hopefully they'll accept the good that's happening, embrace and help you with it.

There was a mother and daughter next to me with a pretty rowdy oodle pup and the lady spent quite a bit of time with them and said the 97% of dogs don't like being patted on the head thing again ...

Actually, to a certain extent I kind of agree. Many dogs find stroking down their bodies or a hand ruffle on the side of the neck more rewarding than a "pat" on the head. Much does depend on how the "pat" is delivered, and the circumstance though. My dog will appreciate a finger ruffle to the top of his head when we're (e.g.) sitting and waiting at lights to cross the road (well, he's sitting, I'm standing ... lol), or when we're sharing a 'cuddle' moment and I gently move my thumb over his stop towards the back of his head. But when we're in active training, a long but swift(isn) stroke or rub down the side of his body is what he prefers. They're all different though and I know of dogs who enjoy a bit of a ruffle at the head. In general, however, I find it can be off-putting and for some a bit too dominating (and I tend to find it can deflate drive, if that's the method being used to train in).

Just my thoughts and experience - not intending to debate on it. IMO, it really is a "to each his own" and if a dog shows he doesn't mind and/or enjoys it ...... kudos :) .

Oh I agree that it's not always appropriate/enjoyed but I just found it was a really weird blanket statement to make and she didn't specify that was in relation to training but just in general you shouldn't pat on the. I wonder where she gets her statistics from...

I'm just going to let her comments roll off my shoulder and try and use the martingale next week, Didi is doing really well and enjoying training so that's all that matters.

[sheena]

I think it's quite true that the majority of dogs don't like being patted on the head. Most dogs will tolerate it, but would prefer to be given a scratch under the chin or ear or a rub along their neck or chest. I think a dog seeing a hand coming straight for the top of it's head could see it as a reprimand, especially with some rescue dogs who have had bad experiences. They are teaching kids in schools about this. The other thing you hear is that dogs don't like to be cuddled. I cuddle my guys but I certainly wouldn't cuddle a dog I didn't know. My girl just loves me to cuddle...she can't get enough, but the young guy just tolerates it because he knows it makes his mum happy :laugh:

[Erny]

The other thing you hear is that dogs don't like to be cuddled. I cuddle my guys but I certainly wouldn't cuddle a dog I didn't know. My girl just loves me to cuddle...she can't get enough, but the young guy just tolerates it because he knows it makes his mum happy :laugh:

Agree about the cuddles. Cuddles are a reciprocal thing if both parties are going to enjoy it. And *trust* certainly needs to be present in both parties for it to possibly be a positive thing. The enjoyment of cuddles is also a situational thing as well.

[dididog]

Yeah I agree for the most part dogs dont like being 'patted' on the head. Maybe Didi's an anomoly because I can pat, stroke and poke her wherever and she enjoys it but she will always duck her head when a stranger tries to pat it. It's not really what she said that bugged me but nore the way shes really absolute in what she says. For example this guy with a staffy pup was saying how the pup gets really bitey sometimes and she said unless it was chewing 3 hours a day it would be bored and try and chew hands. The guy said it chews a bit it just doesn't like hard chew toys and she said all dogs like hard chew toys. Then the people she makes these claims to think they have been doing something wrong when really she doesn't consider all dogs are individuals and you cant nake blanket statements about dogs you barely know. Probably why she reccomends a front attatching harness to everyone as well. Sorry I think I've just taken a disliking to her and am letting it cloud my judgement a bit.