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Labradors are a breed prone to cruciate ligament rupture. Hip misalignment places considerable stress on cruciates. This is one breed I'd have chiro'd regularly. You can't see ligament tears or partial ruptures and the dog won't be lame.

Just to clarify this regular chiro will not necessarily prevent a dog from suffering a cruciate ligament rupture. My girl was only at the chiro about a month before she ruptured a cruciate. My understanding is there is that you can do everything to keep the dog in appropriate condition and the dog can still do the cruciate if its going to do so. However there is also no point in wrapping a dog in cotton wool because they are likely to injure themselves.

My chiropractor would disagree to some extent. He'd argue while it might not prevent a traumatic rupture, it CAN prevent unnecessary strain on ligaments caused by skeletal misalignment. He has told me that dogs that get 'out' in their hips and stay out are more prone to ACL rupture and it makes sense to me. It may not eliminate every cause of ACL rupture (and structural issues and unnecessary weight are two) but it may reduce the incidence of it.

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A little off tangent but its interesting since my girl wasn't deemed to have a traumatic rupture (she was 13 when she did it) but she has never been significantly out anywhere in any of her appointments either. Hence why I am not sure it necessarily helps. Should also add she was still in good physical condition before it went - up to 4km walks twice a day, completed her tracking dog title about 2 months prior and was still out tracking training weekly. Certainly no couch potato and her cruciate went while out on a walk.

Edited by ness
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Labradors are a breed prone to cruciate ligament rupture. Hip misalignment places considerable stress on cruciates. This is one breed I'd have chiro'd regularly. You can't see ligament tears or partial ruptures and the dog won't be lame.

Just to clarify this regular chiro will not necessarily prevent a dog from suffering a cruciate ligament rupture. My girl was only at the chiro about a month before she ruptured a cruciate. My understanding is there is that you can do everything to keep the dog in appropriate condition and the dog can still do the cruciate if its going to do so. However there is also no point in wrapping a dog in cotton wool because they are likely to injure themselves.

My chiropractor would disagree to some extent. He'd argue while it might not prevent a traumatic rupture, it CAN prevent unnecessary strain on ligaments caused by skeletal misalignment. He has told me that dogs that get 'out' in their hips and stay out are more prone to ACL rupture and it makes sense to me. It may not eliminate every cause of ACL rupture (and structural issues and unnecessary weight are two) but it may reduce the incidence of it.

I'd also disagree on the last point to some extent in the context of dog sports. I do not agree that a dog prone to injury should be asked to perform tasks that are going to exacerbate or cause injury. I'd no more jump an unsound dog that I"d jump an unsound horse. You just stop.

My poodle's agility career stopped the DAY he was diagnosed with a skeletal malformation that made him prone to IVDD. He was 5 years old and competing at Masters level. I did not as some suggested (and have done) "just finish off his title". It was my responsibility to give him the best quality of life I can for the longest possible time and if that meant retiring him immediately (which the vet advised) then that's what I did. That is not "wrapping him in cotton wool" as he still has an active life but it does mean avoiding forms of exercise I know will exacerbate his condition.

Unsound is unsound. A dog prone to the same repeated injury caused by dog sports is unsound. The only appropriate action for an unsound sports dog is retirement IMO.

Edited by Haredown Whippets
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i have a youngster with a number of issues (bilateral MPLs although they aren't even sure she has that anymore - long story) and interesting in her case the orthopedic specialists have all been in favour of me continuing to do whatever I want with her because it won't cause anything catastrophic. I don't believe them so she doesn't trial in anything much these days.

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i have a youngster with a number of issues (bilateral MPLs although they aren't even sure she has that anymore - long story) and interesting in her case the orthopedic specialists have all been in favour of me continuing to do whatever I want with her because it won't cause anything catastrophic. I don't believe them so she doesn't trial in anything much these days.

What does that mean? If it causes or exacerbates injury, that's enough for me.

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No I think the consensus is they have no idea truthfully what is going on and can't find enough to even suggest there is a problem and is currently leaving everybody scratching their head :laugh:.

The other thing that I don't like seeing is oldies still competing and doing a full weekend of agility. Sure they may be fit and healthy otherwise but seriously why. I am not against keeping dogs active into their old age but I do wonder if the ANKC shouldn't put an upper age limit on some competition activities. They have minimum age limits in place why not a maximum.

For what its worth I retired my agility dog at 10 - she was still otherwise sound and fit and happy and we then went off and took up tracking as a retirement activity.

Edited by ness
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No I think the consensus is they have no idea truthfully what is going on and can't find enough to even suggest there is a problem and is currently leaving everybody scratching their head :laugh:.

The other thing that I don't like seeing is oldies still competing and doing a full weekend of agility. Sure they may be fit and healthy otherwise but seriously why. I am not against keeping dogs active into their old age but I do wonder if the ANKC shouldn't put an upper age limit on some competition activities. They have minimum age limits in place why not a maximum.

For what its worth I retired my agility dog at 10 - she was still otherwise sound and fit and happy and we then went off and took up tracking as a retirement activity.

The difficulty with upper age limits as I see it is that it doesn't account for breeds (some are going to be going strong when others are flagging) OR is a disincentive to those who DO manage their dogs to keep them sound into older age. What might be sensible and practical if enforced is that JUDGES excuse from the ring any dog they consider unsound (which I think they can already do) and for some instances, require a veterinary assessment before a dog can compete again. I can hear the howls of indignation already.

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:laugh: yes I can really honestly see a judge wanting to dismiss a dog from the ring because its unsound. Just on the matter of age limits an endurance trial already has an upper age limit of 8. Why would it be difficult to put an upper limit on a sport like agility or flyball regardless of breed. If the dog is still sound then you can still train them (and hopefully make the adequate adjustments on jump height) or even trial them in something like a veterans class.

I think its less important in terms of obedience/rally/tracking/dances with dogs which are lower intensity activities and I think can quite safely be done by older dogs.

You also have to remember its not the jumping but the chances are if you have an oldie competing in agility they may well be up in masters so you are subjecting them to turns and angles which aren't going to be as nice on the dog as a simple run around the novice course.

I have seen some clubs here start offering a veterans event which is run over a novice course (I think it might only be a jumping course) and the dogs are permitted to run at whatever height the handlers nominate. Bit tricky for the smaller dogs but you often see the retired 500 dogs run around at 300 and have a ball doing so.

Edited by ness
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Labradors are a breed prone to cruciate ligament rupture. Hip misalignment places considerable stress on cruciates. This is one breed I'd have chiro'd regularly. You can't see ligament tears or partial ruptures and the dog won't be lame.

Just to clarify this regular chiro will not necessarily prevent a dog from suffering a cruciate ligament rupture. My girl was only at the chiro about a month before she ruptured a cruciate. My understanding is there is that you can do everything to keep the dog in appropriate condition and the dog can still do the cruciate if its going to do so. However there is also no point in wrapping a dog in cotton wool because they are likely to injure themselves.

My chiropractor would disagree to some extent. He'd argue while it might not prevent a traumatic rupture, it CAN prevent unnecessary strain on ligaments caused by skeletal misalignment. He has told me that dogs that get 'out' in their hips and stay out are more prone to ACL rupture and it makes sense to me. It may not eliminate every cause of ACL rupture (and structural issues and unnecessary weight are two) but it may reduce the incidence of it.

I'd also disagree on the last point to some extent in the context of dog sports. I do not agree that a dog prone to injury should be asked to perform tasks that are going to exacerbate or cause injury. I'd no more jump an unsound dog that I"d jump an unsound horse. You just stop.

My poodle's agility career stopped the DAY he was diagnosed with a skeletal malformation that made him prone to IVDD. He was 5 years old and competing at Masters level. I did not as some suggested (and have done) "just finish off his title". It was my responsibility to give him the best quality of life I can for the longest possible time and if that meant retiring him immediately (which the vet advised) then that's what I did. That is not "wrapping him in cotton wool" as he still has an active life but it does mean avoiding forms of exercise I know will exacerbate his condition.

Unsound is unsound. A dog prone to the same repeated injury caused by dog sports is unsound. The only appropriate action for an unsound sports dog is retirement IMO.

They used to think ACL damage in humans was bad luck, maybe also the way they were built. But since more money has been spent (i.e. in football) that the players with poor balance (and proprioception) were the ones that damaged their ACL. Further that injuries originating from the lower back could cause this poor balance. Also that when treating issues with the legs that were 'chronic' sometimes doing strengthening of the muscles in the back resulted in significant improvement of performance and reduced pain.

It didn't mean that individuals with perfect balance and backs didn't have ACL damage, nor that all individuals with poor balance and sore backs did damage their ACL but there was a statistical correlation between the two.

We treat many dogs after CCL (cranial cruciate ligament) and almost all of them are very tight and sore in their back. And we find that we have to address that as well as the leg that has been operated on (although we also do medical management and have fantastic results there too). But because we don't have many of our clients pets go on to do CCL damage we don't have enough data to say if we did more core work and careful management to ensure they have good balance, strength and core if we would decrease the incidence of CCL disease. Although the fact that our clients don't have these problems may be the proof that keeping backs happy and ensuring good proprioception works for our furry patients too.

We have just started a course for flyball dogs and are looking at running it for agility dogs which will give us more data- do we have an impact on the number, type and severity of injury in our group? We can certainly see deficiencies that actually do correlate to the injuries typical in flyball dogs, particularly when they do flyball and then go on and also compete in agility.

And when I say program/workshop I don't mean putting them on a peanut and watching them scramble around- the dog shouldn't need support on any of the equipment that you use as an unstable surface. If they do then it is way to hard or you are using it incorrectly. Our flyball group are all at their most calm during the workshop and any highly excitable behaviour is actually counter productive, and the dogs have all naturally settled because they realised that it was easier to do the exercise in a controlled manner than if they were bouncing around on it.

All that being said we have dogs that are 'unsound' that we have been able to build a programme to first properly and completely rehabilitate them and then to ensure that they don't hurt themselves because they have everything else in their favour. We can also teach owners the most subtle signs of when they need to stop completely because they are heading toward an injury.

I will also say that chiropractors can put bandaids on areas that are 'out' but without retraining the dog to use muscles correctly you are continually going to have to go and get it put back 'in'. It doesn't mean that they don't have their place, but I do think we need to look a little further than just this. So like humans we need to start looking at a multidisciplinary approach for these sporting dogs. Human athletes use chiro's, physio's and doctors - and I think some dogs need this because of the level they compete in, their age or genetics. My dogs have had the chiro work on them, but since doing physio they have had less 'out' because they have their muscular support system working as it should.

ETA-

Here is an abstract that shows the subtle differences in apparently non-clinical/Lame dogs with HD showing that there are subtle signs of abnormal movement as well as how problems in the hind end can cause significant changes in the front limb.

Kinematic analysis in healthy and hip-dysplastic German Shepherd dogs

N.S.M.L. Miqueleto a, S.C. Rahal a,⇑, F.S. Agostinho a, E.G.M. Siqueira a, F.A.P. Araújo a, A.O. El-Warrak b

abstract

This study investigated kinematic patterns in clinically normal German Shepherd dogs (GSDs) compared to those with hip dysplasia and with no clinical signs of lameness. Two groups of GSDs, including 10 clin- ically healthy dogs (G1) and 10 with hip dysplasia (G2), were trotted on a treadmill at a constant speed. Kinematic data were collected by a 3-camera system and analysed by a motion-analysis program. Flexion and extension joint angles and angular velocities were determined for the shoulder, elbow, carpal, hip, stifle, and tarsal joints.

Within each group, the differences between the right and left limbs in all kinematic variables were not significant. Minimum angle, angular displacement and minimum angular velocity did not differ between groups. Significant differences were observed in the maximum angular velocity and maximum angle of the hip joint (dysplastic>healthy), and in the maximum angular velocity of the carpal joint (healthy > dysplastic). It was concluded that, when trotting on a treadmill, dysplastic dogs with no signs of lameness may present joint kinematic alterations in the hind as well as the forelimbs.

Edited by Jumabaar
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And here is some interesting thoughts about return to work after injury

Cartilage Changes Caused by Disuse and Immobilization

Clinicians who attempt to restore joint function should understand the effects of immobilization on articular car- tilage (Box 7-1). Disuse of cartilage may result in atrophic or degenerative changes, and these changes are more marked and appear sooner in areas of contact.4 Immobili- zation leads to a decrease in matrix and cellular compo- nents, disorganization of cartilage, and potential irreversible damage if immobilization is prolonged.5 In addition to a reduction in synovial fluid production with immobiliza- tion, nutrition to cartilage is diminished as a result of reduced synovial pumping and nutrient diffusion. The age of the dog, as well as the form of immobilization used, may affect results. Several models of joint immobilization and disuse have been studied, including casting with the limb in flexion or extension, external skeletal fixation, and non– weight-bearing models (such as sling application). The changes in mechanical behavior and biochemical composi- tion of articular cartilage appear to be less dramatic in limbs immobilized in a sling than in limbs immobilized in a cast. Adult greyhound dogs had stifles placed in a sling at 90 degrees of flexion for 4 or 8 weeks, which allowed some limited motion of the stifle but no weight bearing. There were no changes in the compressive properties of cartilage, PG content, collagen content, or cartilage thick- ness.6 This suggests that immobilization with a sling may be less deleterious to articular cartilage as compared with other models of joint disuse in which cartilage changes are both progressive and degenerative.6 Immobilization with a joint in flexion does not generally lead to arthritic changes in the short term, but cartilage atrophy may occur. Immo- bilization of a joint in extension results in increased muscle contraction against the immobilization device and changes in articular cartilage similar to those seen in OA.

The Effects of Remobilization on Cartilage

The response of cartilage to remobilization depends on the biomechanical demand that the joint is exposed to, the condition of the cartilage, and the length of the immobili- zation and remobilization period (Box 7-3). If the joint is subjected to high stresses and repeated loading immedi- ately after immobilization, cartilage may not be able to resist the stresses and may become damaged because of injury to the softened matrix. The duration and the degree of load bearing after immobilization are factors that deter- mine the cartilage response. Also, the ability to restore biomechanical properties may depend on an intact collagen network.

Effects of Training on Cartilage

The adaptation that occurs in functioning joints is known as Leed’s hypothesis, which states that cartilage becomes conditioned to transmit, without sustaining damage, the stresses to which it is most regularly subjected.27 Exercise places biomechanical and physiologic demands on articu- lar cartilage.44 Mild to moderate levels of running in dogs may stimulate adaptation, but strenuous levels can cause detrimental articular cartilage changes

NB- Joint motion without compression may be thought of as swimming

Intermittent compression tends to stimulate chondro- cyte biosynthesis. Joint motion without compression results in articular cartilage thinning, and static loading causes decreased chondrocyte biosynthesis.44 Cartilage subjected to high stress has higher PG content and is stiffer than cartilage exposed to low stress levels. Most studies of moderate running indicate no injury to articular cartilage, assuming there are no abnormal biomechanical stresses acting on the joints.
Response of Muscle to Disuse and Immobilization

The muscles most vulnerable to disuse atrophy are the postural muscles that contain a relatively large proportion of type I (slow-twitch) muscle fibers, extensor muscles, and muscles that cross a single joint (Box 7-6). Conversely, those least susceptible to atrophy are those not used as postural muscles (antagonist muscles), flexor muscles, muscles that cross multiple joints, and muscles that are predominantly composed of type II (fast-twitch) muscle fibers.58,135 Immobilization reduces the chronic load on these muscles (Figure 7-4). Muscle strength decreases rapidly during the first week of immobilization, with further losses occurring more gradually over time.136 Loss of muscle force production is not entirely explained by muscle atrophy alone. There may be up to a 50% reduction in peak force, even when the muscle mass has been nor- malized to constant muscle mass. This suggests that a cellular component may be involved, such as an alteration in sarcoplasmic reticulum function. In addition, there is decreased mitochondrial function and reduced protein syn- thesis. Interestingly, there is often an increase in capillary density and sometimes blood flow to muscles undergoing atrophy.127,137,138 Removal of weight-bearing activity has less effect on type II muscle fibers because these do not perform a major function in maintaining posture. In fact, with reduced stress, there may be an increase in type II muscle fibers. This results in increased maximum muscle velocity, not only in type II muscle fibers, but also in type I muscle fibers. These changes help attenuate a decline in power output as a result of atrophy.

Prolonged bed rest in people causes changes in muscle mass.148 In humans, 4 to 5 weeks of bed rest results in a 10% loss of muscle mass in the lower limbs and 4 months of bed rest results in 20-30% loss of muscle mass. In people, 10 minutes of standing per day during bed rest attenuates muscle atrophy by 25%. If some resistance exer- cise is added, muscle atrophy is attenuated by up to 50%. In addition, there is an apparent shift in muscle fiber type with bed rest. After 35 days of bed rest in one study, there was a slow to fast shift in muscle phenotype.149 Consis- tently, fiber type distribution was shifted toward type II and IIAX fibers. Muscle fiber atrophy was variable among fiber types. Myosin concentration was significantly lower in type I and type IIA muscle fibers after bed rest than before bed rest, whereas the myosin/actin ratio did not vary, sug- gesting a disproportionate loss of myosin compared with fiber cross-sectional area and a proportional loss of myosin and actin.

Spaceflight may also result in significant loss of muscle mass because of the loss of weight bearing and loading.148 Muscle volumes of the calf, thigh, and lower back were determined before and after an 8-day space shuttle mission. The soleus-gastrocnemius (−6.3%), anterior calf (−3.9%), hamstrings (−8.3%), quadriceps (−6%), and intrinsic back (−10.3%) muscles were decreased 24 hours after landing compared with baseline. After 2 weeks, the hamstrings and intrinsic lower back muscles were still below baseline.

Think of bed rest being the same as crate rest.

And space flight the same as swimming.

Endurance Training

Endurance training does not affect muscle fiber number or cross-sectional area, but it alters metabolic responses. There is a twofold increase in oxidative capacity of all muscle fiber types with endurance training. There is an increase in muscle mitochondrial density, oxidative enzyme activity, muscle glycogen, and intracellular lipids.146 Fatty acid use increases while reliance on carbohydrate metabo- lism is reduced. Muscles become more fatigue-resistant with training. Endurance training also elevates the antioxi- dant and detoxicant status of muscle.142

Strength Training

Strength training uses brief, maximal contractions and requires a relatively high rate of anaerobic energy produc- tion. In addition to increased enzyme activity for glycolysis and glycogenolysis, there is an increase in muscle strength and size. Muscle fiber cross-sectional area is directly related to the tension the muscle is capable of exerting.225

Edited by Jumabaar
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No I think the consensus is they have no idea truthfully what is going on and can't find enough to even suggest there is a problem and is currently leaving everybody scratching their head :laugh:.

The other thing that I don't like seeing is oldies still competing and doing a full weekend of agility. Sure they may be fit and healthy otherwise but seriously why. I am not against keeping dogs active into their old age but I do wonder if the ANKC shouldn't put an upper age limit on some competition activities. They have minimum age limits in place why not a maximum.

For what its worth I retired my agility dog at 10 - she was still otherwise sound and fit and happy and we then went off and took up tracking as a retirement activity.

The difficulty with upper age limits as I see it is that it doesn't account for breeds (some are going to be going strong when others are flagging) OR is a disincentive to those who DO manage their dogs to keep them sound into older age. What might be sensible and practical if enforced is that JUDGES excuse from the ring any dog they consider unsound (which I think they can already do) and for some instances, require a veterinary assessment before a dog can compete again. I can hear the howls of indignation already.

I don't agree with imposing an upper age limit. I am still competing in flyball with my 9 year old and he is quicker then he has ever been and is perfectly fine after a comp. He isn't a dog to go hard and do stupid, risky things though.

Why should I be made to stop competing with him because others can't keep their older dogs fit and healthy?

I wouldn't care about doing a vet assessment either as my vets have no issues with him still competing and say he is fitter and healthier then most dogs they see :)

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So I ask does anybody have a problem with the endurance limit? There was obviously logic to imposing age limit for that particular activity.

I do, especially as they require a medical certificate before participating. A vet wouldn't pass an unfit older dog and if they happen to, the checks during the test would sort out the ones that shouldn't continue.

Who knows what the logic was but I personally don't consider 8 old for a medium or a small breed especially with all options now available to ensure longevity in our dogs.

Edited by Sayreovi
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So I ask does anybody have a problem with the endurance limit? There was obviously logic to imposing age limit for that particular activity.

I don't think it is reasonable. 20km at a trot is hardly physically taxing for many dogs (particularly those of working breed background) even at an older age. It would be more physically demanding for them to regularly compete in agility/flyball. Working dogs will often work beyond 8 years of age anyway so that particular age limit seems restricting.

There a 2 breaks for vet checks and any dog showing any signs of illness or lameness would not be allowed to continue on anyway.

Personally I don't think the ET title proves much in many breeds, although in a small non working breed (especially a brachycephalic breed) it would be a relative achievement, although how many pugs or bulldogs for instance would have this title?

However, it is always good to see dogs and their owners bonding together and working towards a title/achievement.

I'd like to see it become more challenging for the more physically suited breeds eg. gundogs, herding breeds, sledding breeds for whom 20km is hardly challenging. Perhaps having 2 categories would be beneficial? Like a marathon vs half marathon? Both are impressive achievements for sure but there should be a way to distinguish exceptionally fit dogs.

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I think the ET limit should be determined by a vet not a set figure - it's so breed dependent, for example my Tenterfield Terrier (There are Tenties with ET titles) is 7 - but is in the same condition as he was 5 years ago - and his breed is a longlived one that is known to be sound for 12-13+ years (two of his relatives died at 18 years of age) so the cutoff is actually less than half way through his expected lifespan.

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I think the ET limit should be determined by a vet not a set figure - it's so breed dependent, for example my Tenterfield Terrier (There are Tenties with ET titles) is 7 - but is in the same condition as he was 5 years ago - and his breed is a longlived one that is known to be sound for 12-13+ years (two of his relatives died at 18 years of age) so the cutoff is actually less than half way through his expected lifespan.

Not all vets are good with picking up soundness issues in dogs, so you have the potential for an unsound dog being signed off as being ok to complete the ET.

I think there has to be a line in the sand drawn for the good of the dogs, and if it's a conservative age where the line gets drawn - so be it. Sadly there are overweight, unsound and unfit dogs being trained in agility (my chosen sport) and even trialling by people who should know better. I can think of several who were trialling way past a point where they should've been retired :(

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I agree with many of your points Jess.

The thing about ET, you will only run the dog in it once so a conservative age range isn't such a big deal. It was important for me to get Zig's ET as that's what the Dally should do with ease (he did - heart rate went down at every vet check except at the last one because he'd flirted with some pretty spotty girls lol) but I see no point with my ESS. How she runs in retrieving trials says it all.

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