Conditioning Your Canine Athlete

[OSoSwift]

Or if you feed your dog meat every day and then it will still work for meat as a reward?

Then it wouldn't matter that you use meat to feed it every day? Yes?

This intruiges me as to why. I know with some dogs it may lose it's value but I have to say with my own I find that It doesn't happen, so do I create a good enough addiction?

[huski]

What about if you can throw a tennis ball for a dog every day, but you use a blue ball as a training reward and they still show a huge amount of drive for that?

Or a dog that is addicted enough it would send it's self into collapse chasing said ball, it would then have anough desire to get the ball to use it for training and recreation?

I don't think it's about purely drive, our dogs have lots of drive and could work all day long until they drop dead from exhaustion.

I never have a training session where I don't have my dog show an enormous amount of drive to earn the reward but I do notice an increase in work ethic when I restrict how much they get for free. I'm not saying never to do those things - but I monitor how much I give for free or cheap. Even if it's a 5-10% difference for dogs with lots of drive, that can be substantial. One thing I've learnt from having a high drive dog is it's easy to let them get away with giving less than 100%.

[huski]

Or if you feed your dog meat every day and then it will still work for meat as a reward?

Then it wouldn't matter that you use meat to feed it every day? Yes?

This intruiges me as to why. I know with some dogs it may lose it's value but I have to say with my own I find that It doesn't happen, so do I create a good enough addiction?

I think it depends on the dog and your goals. Are you getting what you consider 110% in training/work/performance? Do you feel there is no room for improvement or your dog is giving you 110% consistently? If you don't want any more from your dog then you have no reason to question what you can do to get more.

However I know many high drive dogs that have had a noticeable increase in performance even when minimally restricting access to the handler and/or rewards. It is not always a case of having lack luster work to start with but wanting an extra edge.

With dogs with less drive, IMO it is without question these things can all make a difference.

I don't ask my dog to work hard all the time, I expect her to switch on and off as I require. But when I want her on, I want her ON.

[Dory the Doted One]

Thankyou all for the discussion. Keep it coming.

[OSoSwift]

Hmm well I figure you can always improve, always, does my dog try very very hard, yes.

THe pup is learning. When I get my boy out he is animated and bouncing and pushing to work. Someone asked me how I live with three of them, I was like huh??? they are quiet as, couch potatoes.

They had only ever seen them at training acting like a controlled explosion. So do I think they try and give it their all, yes, is their work perfect? nope, not always thats why we train. Mostly it is me making sure I observe subtleties in my communication.

I am wondering if we are talking about the same thing but with different ways of doing so or if we are poles apart? Do I have a different expectation of drive or engagment?

Of course my dogs will work differently they are a different breed doing different stuff, I just wonder about the definition of drive. I am yet to get a clear indication of exactly what it is. I had read a lot of what it isn't. When I have read bits that try to explain it simply, it kinda sounds like bits of what it apparently isn't. I find this a tad frustrating to be honest.

Edited March 12, 2014 by OSoSwift

[huski]

Again though I don't restrict activities like throwing the ball because my dog lacks drive - that's definitely not the case! For me it's also about developing work ethic and the way the dog learns how they can gain reward. Why should they put their all into training when they know they can get reward for a cheaper price all the time? How can it make the reward experience special and exciting if they have access to me and the rewards I offer essentially 24/7? I like to maintain a level of novelty in training to make the reward value even higher.

Like I said - this could make a marginal difference for some dogs. For dogs with less drive like my beagle it did help build drive for the reward and made a huge difference to her training.

I wasn't aiming my post to you - just saying that activities where the dog has access to reward is something I consciously restrict.

I agree a lot of people use the term drive but they are not always clear in what they mean by it. For example - a dog that is bouncing around excitedly isn't necessarily in drive.

When a dog is in drive they are in a high level of arousal. drive is an adrenalin fueled behavior and a dog that goes through a drive motor pattern receives a chemical reward (the release of endorphins).

I will commonly see people use a drive reward like a game of tug at the end of an exercise but the dog wasn't actually working in drive during the exercise. It's a topic that can be very in depth!

Edited March 12, 2014 by huski

[OSoSwift]

Oh no I didn't think the post was specifically aimed at me, I am more thinking out loud so to speak.

Yes I imagine it is very indepth. I have tried to read as much as possible but it sort of seems to come back to, you really need to see it to understand, which unfortunately doesn't help me much :)

[Dory the Doted One]

Moving back on to topic. Not that I haven't enjoyed the diversion, because I have. :laugh:

I've made and appointment to see someone later in the month so we can do an assessment and see what we need to do for her. I'll keep you all posted. I'm keenly interested to see what they have to say as this is all new territory for me. Bit excited about the learning new stuff.

[Salukifan]

There is science based advice around if you know where to look. I suggest you start with everything that Dr Christine Zink (US sports vet) has written on the subject.

However, conditioning is only one aspect of caring for a performance animal. The word missing from the vocabulary of a lot of dog sports people IMO is "husbandry". If you hang out with performance horse people, they put a lot of time, money and effort not only into preparing horses for their sports but also into caring for them and SPELLING them from performing.

No show jumper would train and compete their horses week in, week out throughout the year and yet a lot of dog people do it without thinking.

In my opinion, appropriate sports animal husbandry involves the following:

* Selection of an animal that is structually suited for the sport (quite a few dogs fail here) and allowance for full physical development before physically demanding training and competition is undertaken (more fails, especially in flyball IMO). Dr Zink is one of the leading advocates of late desexing (if at all) for sports dogs.

* Development of an exercise and nutrition regime that optimally prepares the dog to compete. The nutritional needs of a canine athlete are not the same as those for a sedentary pet.

* Regular visits for musclar and skeletal checks and husbandry.

* SPELLING

When you see dogs badly unsound due to the demands placed on them by competition owners, you have to acknowldge that this is not right. Dr Zink has seen dogs that have had it by age 5 in US flyball comps. Not good enough IMO.

Many of the dogs selected and competed in these sports at elite level are extemely high drive. They'd run on 3 legs if their owners asked them to. That doesn't mean they should have to.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[huski]

Dory I look forward to hearing how you go!

[OSoSwift]

People don't spell their dogs????

That's insane, especially if they are showing signs of wear and tear

[Salukifan]

People don't spell their dogs????

That's insane, especially if they are showing signs of wear and tear

Of course not all wear and tear is visible in the early stages.

I have been asked on many occasions why I have my dogs chiropracted regularly if "they don't have a problem". My answer is that I'm trying to prevent problems, not cure them. I also have my oldies done and frankly I think they are the best proof of the value of decent husbandry.

But yes, trialling on the way to and from Nationals? Entering every class a dog is eligible for on every possible weekend? It happens. Some dogs cope, but personally I do question the wisdom of it.

[huski]

Dogs that are higher drive often have a higher pain threshold and it isn't always obvious when they've injured themselves somehow. Another reason why regular checks with a good chiro is really beneficial.

[OSoSwift]

I guess coming from a horse background it is normal to spell your horse after the last show, for at least a month, then bring them back in slowly in time for the first event of the new year., so that just transferred over to the dogs.

Oh definitively some wear and tear, especially in the early stages would be completely not noticed, and yes dogs that are really driven will do their job and not even register something is not right.

I had never really thought about it before as I always give the dogs time out. Dog club winds up, I am flat out at the kennels so we just do fun stuff for a good month like walks, playing, beach visits etc.

It would be even more important with dogs that have a very full schedule throughout the year.

Edited March 14, 2014 by OSoSwift

[aussielover]

I'm interested to know what people would classify as a "canine athlete"

Is it dogs trialling at national/ international level? Actual working dogs (eg assistance, police, farm,customs etc)? The casual competitor? Only when they've reached a certain level? Breed of dog?

Personally I wouldn't say my dog is an athlete. We train in agility a few times a week and trial once to twice a month at masters level, we also do some retrieving training. We have a break over summer (nov-feb) with training and trialling.

We exercise about 2 hrs a day usually free running, running next to a bike, swimming, some lead walking and ball throwing. But In between exercise she's generally very lazy.

I'm aware this is probably above what the average dog would do but I don't really consider her to be an athlete. I mean I participate in sports too but I wouldn't say I'm an athlete either lol

I don't put any special effort into her diet although being a lab she can't get fed much.

I've never had any lameness or stiffness issues with her.

I would consider nutritional supplements but it is hard enough to keep her lean on a normal diet! Id also consider doing exercises or seeing a physio/chiro if there were specific issues but none yet so far.

But after reading everyone's comments I may consider conditioning and supplements more seriously now

[Salukifan]

I'm interested to know what people would classify as a "canine athlete"

Is it dogs trialling at national/ international level? Actual working dogs (eg assistance, police, farm,customs etc)? The casual competitor? Only when they've reached a certain level? Breed of dog?

Personally I wouldn't say my dog is an athlete.We train in agility a few times a week and trial once to twice a month at masters level, we also do some retrieving training

I would. You dog regularly performs an activity that is not "natural" and for which it requires training and a certain level of fitness.

I've never had any lameness or stiffness issues with her. I would consider nutritional supplements but it is hard enough to keep her lean on a normal diet! Id also consider doing exercises or seeing a physio/chiro if there

were specific issues but none yet so far.But after reading everyone's comments I may consider conditioning and supplements more seriously now

Labradors are a breed prone to cruciate ligament rupture. Hip misalignment places considerable stress on cruciates. This is one breed I'd have chiro'd regularly. You can't see ligament tears or partial ruptures and the dog won't be lame.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[ness]

Labradors are a breed prone to cruciate ligament rupture. Hip misalignment places considerable stress on cruciates. This is one breed I'd have chiro'd regularly. You can't see ligament tears or partial ruptures and the dog won't be lame.

Just to clarify this regular chiro will not necessarily prevent a dog from suffering a cruciate ligament rupture. My girl was only at the chiro about a month before she ruptured a cruciate. My understanding is there is that you can do everything to keep the dog in appropriate condition and the dog can still do the cruciate if its going to do so. However there is also no point in wrapping a dog in cotton wool because they are likely to injure themselves.

[Steph M]

This is an interesting read for me as well, given my dog is nowhere near an athlete but is quite active and we would like to keep our sporting options open, it makes sense to want him as strong as he can be. He did lose quite a bit of muscle following his desex, which meant no running and swimming for a fortnight. I did notice a drop in his fitness when we got back to it.

Interesting read even for us non-athletes!

Edited March 14, 2014 by Steph M

[The Spotted Devil]

Also....my personal experience is that a dog that is in really good shape physically seems to handle mental pressure a lot better. When I've just handled the sh!t out of Em in a retrieving trial (lots of mental pressure) it's much easier for her to bounce back and take on the next challenge (eg long water swim so physically and mentally draining) if she's super fit. I think this is also applicable to less physically demanding sports such as obedience.

[huski]

I agree with you TSD.

I think how you train and work your dog in a sport can make a difference as well. I like stylised obedience and my training sessions are very active. Keeping my dog fit is very important for the style of training we do. Whereas some people who train obedience keep their dogs calm and the most activity they do is plodding up and down the field walking next to the handler. If their dog isn't super fit it probably won't be very apparent to them in training or trialling.

Edited March 14, 2014 by huski