persephone Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 with a muzzle ..it takes a gentle training period :) Show her ..let her sniff ...praise. show her let her sniff...rub it over her face ...praise. Hold a toy/treat in fron of her..with one hand .. slip muzzle over her muzzle for a second- let her get treat/toy ..repeat, repeat, repeat ..until she is comfy with slipping muzzle on & off ..then buckle it up ..poke some treats thru the holes ..take it off ..leave longer next time , etc . OR.... do the first step a few times ...get her revved up about walking or whatever she loves ...strap muzzle on ..and walk!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 The reason I've suggested a veterinary behaviourist is because I think this is a case where Rosie may benefit from behaviour modification and medication. Only a vet behaviourist can prescribe medication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 The reason I've suggested a veterinary behaviourist is because I think this is a case where Rosie may benefit from behaviour modification and medication. Only a vet behaviourist can prescribe medication. That sounds a good plan ... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) I'm definitely not an expert but I do have to wonder how much of this behaviour can be successfully modified. I would do anything that built up Rosie's sense of security and confidence and if that means giving her a constant canine companion, then that's what I'd do. I think you may have to accept the fact that much of this behaviour isn't fixable but it may be manageable. She does sound like she has issues with inactivity. I have to say (and I say it with some trepidation) that if all you can see in front of you with this dog is heartache and expense and IF the opinion and options given by a vet behaviourist don't paint a happy picture, I would consider giving Rosie her wings. Life with a dog is not meant to be a constant merry-go-round of misery and anxiety for dog or owner. She's had a dreadful start to life and sadly for her and you, some of those experiences now shape her future. Edited March 7, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) And otherwise get the crate games dvd and go through the whole program. Enforced crate rest that lets her wind down (quiet place, covered crate) might help in the interim. She is always doing the 'up' activities, very stimulating. For her, giving her food when calm may also be stimulating so provide the rest place and enforce it by closing the door if necessary. I'm just not quite game to try it again. Last time we tried to crate her we left it open for a week and she would come and go, we put her toys and treats in there and she would eat them half in half out, I'd praise her for going in and sitting or dropping but as soon as I closed the door she lost her mind and panicked. I went back a few steps and after a week did it again, thought she might calm down but after ten minutes she'd ripped up her pads trying to dig out so I think we might try the mat thing. I just can't ever see myself alone being able to get her to a point where the crate would be a nice, calming place to be and don't want to do more damage. You might well be right about the food though. I will scale back on her 'doing things' time for some 'not doing things' time. That's fair enough, if she will go in, and sit, and accept a high value treat, and you can close the door and then open it immediately, that is the first section. You could spend a few weeks just doing short sessions of this before you move on. It's actually about teaching the dog the crate is extremely high value and not to exit, with the door open, no matter the distraction. :) Edited March 7, 2014 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Definitely see a reputable behaviourist (I personally wouldn't say it has to be a vet behaviourist - a reputable behaviourist will have a lot of experience in anxiety cases) ASAP. But in the meantime I would restrict her freedom in the house. Don't let her have free run - crate her, have her outside, have a pen set up inside the house so she has somewhere she can be when you aren't watching her or interacting with her. She does not take at all to crating. We did think it might be an option at one point but she tries very hard to dig her way out and that ends in her tearing her pads up, so it's just not worth it at this point. She is generally outside when she can't be watched, that's good advice. Sorry Steph, I had only read your first post when I replied. I wonder whether you could set up a little pen for her in part of the house instead? Make it a calm, happy place similar to what a crate would do, but it might not make her panic in the same way as a crate does? Control Unleashed is a book that has lots of exercises in it to teach your dog to relax. Rosie sounds like a perfect candidate for them :) I would also be really looking at training calm behaviour as you would with any other behaviour. In both people and dogs, emotions can be induced by adopting the body posture (or in humans, the facial expressions) associated with those emotions. If you reward her for calm and relaxed body language her emotions should follow. However my guess is that you need to address the anxiety first as there is probably little chance of her being able to relax as she is continually pushed into an anxious state, and it can take ages for those hormones to leave the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeebie Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I hear this dog saying I want to WORK!!! over and overm Rosie is trying to tell you, it is part and parcel of her breed. Get her into something like herding, flyball, frisbee. Energy to burn comes with these breeds so big long walk and couple times a day. Dogs are smart creatures they had to be to learn to fend for themselves that is why they partnered up with humans so they could totally bend us to do their bidding. What you have to know is what is genuine fear aggression/ fear flight as opposed just 'acting out to get their way' First and foremost is a very strong human who can do the job and get this dog totally obedient without breaking her spirit, it can be done with kindness, perserverence and repetition. Part A though is getting her frustration with life worked out through exercise. good luck it is a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph M Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 The problem with getting her to these things and even obedience is her nerves. She sees someone she doesn't like and she just won't do anything. We have tried lure coursing as she loves to run, that was a big flop until someone asked if she would like to run with their dog, even that only worked once! Haha. Even basic obedience, I worry what happens when Gus moves up a class. I would love her to have a job, or try agility or something but we have a lot of kinks to work out before that's a possibility! I certainly have never felt she is acting out to get her way, it seems pretty genuine to me. I wish she were just carrying on! Also total obedience is pretty low on the list too. I'd settle for being able to take my eyes off her for an hour and go read alone! Haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) I have a very high drive puppy and while I can't help you much on the anxiety issues, the foraging (stealing) is a very big part of our lives! He definitely needed to be taught to turn his brain off or to better use his constant energy. At seven months old we are getting there. The main thing that helped us was implementing very strict rules and making sure all members of the household stuck to them. For example we would designated the few hours after dinner in the lounge room as a family to teaching calm indoor behaviour. We had to remove all toys and pretty much everything in the room as he would get overstimulated. If he tried to leave the room, he'd get called back. If he came, that was ok, but that was one chance down. If he tried again it was an immediate time out (we used the crate but you could find something else that worked for you). If he didn't come back when called it was immediate time out. Foraging the carpet was another thing he loved (still does) so we lightly discouraged that. It was a LOT of work and it still takes lots of ignoring and time outs when needed but most nights he can now spend with us without being an idiot. He's still not great at regulating himself so he needs a bit of 'help'. Good luck :) Edit: Take your eyes off her for an hour? Hahaha :D We're happy if we get 5 minutes of quiet time :p Edited March 7, 2014 by wuffles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I would strongly recommend contacting Dr Robert Holmes. I think you do need a vet behaviourist given the problems she has and what you have tried as medication in conjunction with a behaviour mod program, may be required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) You havn't called me yet :laugh: the dog is bonded to Gus, there's your problem. She's following his lead instead of yours thats why you're not getting anywhere with her focus or behaviour. She's made him her crutch and without him she's lost, when the basic should be she listens and trusts your lead. I can't believe the number of people that have already jumped straight to medication ... the dog has NO foundation learning or bonding which is where the problems are stemming from. As for the hyperactivity ... well what happens when an active working breed is left to its own devices with no way to calm down and constantly engages in self rewarding behavior ... Edited March 7, 2014 by Nekhbet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) You havn't called me yet :laugh: the dog is bonded to Gus, there's your problem. She's following his lead instead of yours thats why you're not getting anywhere with her focus or behaviour. She's made him her crutch and without him she's lost, when the basic should be she listens and trusts your lead. I can't believe the number of people that have already jumped straight to medication ... the dog has NO foundation learning or bonding which is where the problems are stemming from. As for the hyperactivity ... well what happens when an active working breed is left to its own devices with no way to calm down and constantly engages in self rewarding behavior ... As I see it, some people have suggested seeing someone who can prescribe it. That's hardly ramming pills down the dog's throat. Edited March 7, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Suggesting the OP see someone who has the ability to prescribe medication IF required is not the same as jumping straight to medication. Only people who have seen the dog know whether that is appropriate and i take it from your post Nek that you do know the dog in which case you are privy to info the rest of us are not. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) What do you think veterinary behaviorists mostly do - meds. Because the dog is not being taught to cope. If the dog can be the life of the party with another dog around, you can see it's a crutch. If anxiety is real and severe, the presence of another dog would not fix that for the dog, it would still exhibit the fear. The fact the dog wont progress without the other shows too high bonding and reliance on dogs. If Rosie can go to day care and be care free and well behaved, then her behavior is a learned conditional response to deal with stress. You can't always treat your way out of that. It needs to be separated and relearn to take guidance on how to behave from scratch. Reward based learning relies on the fact the dog is in a thinking frame of mind - now in a dog like this who has not learned to concentrate or think how far do you think you will get? Edited March 7, 2014 by Nekhbet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 With her ear set, colouration and some behaviors ever think she's part catahoula? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeimMe Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I can't comment on the anxiety, but I did have a destructive dog who did (and still sometimes does) like to steal and destroy things. I still can't trust him 100%, but for the most part he has become much easier to live with as he has matured. Some things like bags of rubbish, socks and underwear still prove too tempting to resist so I have to be mindful of doors being closed and things being kept out of reach but at least he isn't destroying the furniture any more! I also found it difficult to bond with him when his stealing was at its peak so I completely empathise with you on that point. The turn around for Hugo was obedience training, largely I think because he learned to associate being on the leash with sitting quietly. For a while he was either in his crate, outside playing with something I'd given him or inside on the leash sitting quietly while we watched TV etc. He was not allowed indoors if he was not contained or controlled because it was a certainty that he'd destroy something. After a while I allowed him to be off the leash supervised for short periods and eventually he was able be off leash most of the time. I also trained him to bring me whatever he'd stolen and drop it for a pat or a treat...but if it's a food related item (ie. rubbish or food container) that doesn't work so well. Anyway, hang in there. I just wanted to let you know that there's light at the end of the tunnel and I'm sure that if you work with a trainer you will see a positive improvement soon. BTW...as I wrote this Hugo brought me an eraser - my daughter left her bedroom door open! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) For the record, Veterinary Behaviourists will prescribe meds that they think appropriate to help with a behaviour modification program, and generally recommend to continue with obedience training if they feel it benefits the dog. This is because they often see the most severe of anxiety, phobic behaviours, OCD and aggression issues. They also provide follow-up by way of email or phone communication to advise on further tweaking of meds AND the behaviour mod program. Surprisingly, they will also work with owners who decide medication is not the route they want to take, or just not 'for now'. :) Edited March 7, 2014 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph M Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 You're right about the reliance, Nekh, we have made a consistent point of taking them out separately and walking them alone where possible but she did pick him before us, she was listen as only to be rehomed with another dog, as she'd been fostered with her brother, so I suspect there might have been an inkling this could be a problem even initially. I should have asked more questions but she did seem pretty normal for the first few days and we assumed it was just settling issues when she started to take things. Youre pribably right that our value is lower than his, she is devoted but honestly he could give or take. Haha. He's happy to lounge with us and have a cuddle on the couch. Not to say she isn't fussed with us, she will drive you mad for a cuddle and I'll often come in and find Brooke cradling her like a baby and her fast asleep. She's very much his buddy. As for the catahoula, your guess is 100% as good as ours. Haha! She's chipped as a JRT x. Go figure. Probably somewhere back there she's got JR, among everything else. I'll pop you off an email tomorrow. We are going away to see family in a week or so, they're coming too so will be a few weeks off getting started yet but if you tell me she's certifiable and a nutbag then we can think about medication but hey, any foundation and insight is better than nothing, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Are you near Steph M Nekh? Steph - maybe give Nekh a call and see what she can offer... she's had some good success with dogs like this before... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 One of mine would steal like a demented clepto when he was younger. He shredded an insane amount of stuff from clothing to my garden hose, which looked like someone set to it with a pair of scissors. Any opportunity he too would sneak off and grab whatever was handy then proceed to turn it into confetti. Now, doesn't touch a thing touch wood :laugh: going back to his then owner for a while seemed to set him straight Dogs will do what they think gets them a result, even if that is making themselves look and feel miserable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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