Training To Walk On Leash

[sheena]

All these dog sports including agility are for ALL breeds of dogs. I have even seen a min. dachie competing at top level once :laugh: I am surprised that no-one on this topic has come in & said that there is a positive reward way of teaching your dog to walk on a loose leash. Much kinder to use a clicker than a choke chain If I get more time before I go to bed I will put it up, if no-one else has by then :)

Thanks sheena I would be really interested.

Badbee...sorry I have taken so long to get back...we have a triple trial on next weekend & I am busy doing up about 500 prizes...oh wot fun :laugh:

First of all you have to start off with little or no distractions & somewhere where he can't leave you...even put a long lead on that you can step on if he goes to move away too far. I would start off in the lounge room. Have him OFF LEAD & arm yourself with lots of yummy treats & a clicker. Preferably keep these items so that he is not looking directly at them...I put my treat bag around my back, otherwise the treat bag itself can become a lure & a cue. Just walk around the room & everytime he comes close to you..click & treat. After a few clicks up the anti & only C & T when he moves in near your leg etc etc. Keep the sessions really short & end when you think he is "making progress"...don't keep on trying for something harder & harder until he fails. We want our dog to succeed. When you have him coming into your side without any prompts from you, its time to put a cue word on it...eg. lets walk, or something. Then practice it in a different room, gradually add a few distractions, then move to a quite place outside...you getting my drift?

You can also do this exercise. Put him on lead in a place with very little to distract him, like before & every time he hits the end of the lead, just turn around & walk in the opposite direction. Don't "pop" or jerk, just be gentle. As soon as he catches back up to your leg, click & treat. When he moves out again, repeat. You wont get very far but it will be worth it in the long run & just remember that walking on a loose lead does not mean that he has to be heeling...just walking without pulling. You will no doubt be wanting to take him for walks before he is LL trained, so just put a front attached harness on him, so that all your good work does not come undone. I have PM'd you with a bit more info. :)

[Amax-1]

You've thrown too much into the stew pot.

Have a long lead, let her run around and when she is about to pull give her constant fast pops on the collar and turn in the opposite direction. Don't say a word unless she is right next to you and paying attention to you. Don't bother with no, short leads etc they actually make the dog want to get further away. She has to learn some self sufficiency - if you go pull you will get no praise, no reward and firm pops on the leash, If you don't pull, you get verbal praise, jackpot treats for looking at me and no pressure on the collar.

Black and white. You will have to spend a little more time doing it now as she has a habit of ignoring you. But NO verbal chastisement otherwise, who wants to listen to someone that nags ;)

Excellent post......the best way by to teach a loose leash walk that nothing else compares

[Amax-1]

clicker only works if the dog pays attention to you and is not always foolproof if the dog finds the surrounding environment of higher value then the handler and the 'treats' offered. Which by the way should never be the whole reward but the clicker makes it so.

+1....the moment a clicker trained dog reliable in a sterile environment meets high value distraction, the clicker training goes out the window.

[m-j]

clicker only works if the dog pays attention to you and is not always foolproof if the dog finds the surrounding environment of higher value then the handler and the 'treats' offered. Which by the way should never be the whole reward but the clicker makes it so.

+1....the moment a clicker trained dog reliable in a sterile environment meets high value distraction, the clicker training goes out the window.

I agree if the dog is not conditioned or had that conditioning generalised ,it will definately do that. A dog that is conditioned and generalised PROPERLY will respond under high distraction. Just as a dog that doesn't understand or care about the promise of a unpleasant consequence for inappropriate behaviour and it hasn't been generalised, will blow off it's owner.

[sheena]

clicker only works if the dog pays attention to you and is not always foolproof if the dog finds the surrounding environment of higher value then the handler and the 'treats' offered. Which by the way should never be the whole reward but the clicker makes it so.

What a load of hog wash :laugh: If that was the case then why is it so successful in training dogs in things like Canine Freestyle where the dog has to pay attention to the handler for sometimes up to 5 minutes & in front of a strange audience. It is also becoming more popular with training guide dogs, assistance dogs, sniffer dogs & police dogs. EG Michele Pouliot, three times International Champion Freestyle trains her dogs with the clicker, I don't see her dogs running off stage when they get distracted. Then again, maybe she would be four times world champion if she used a choke chain or a pronged collar to train her dogs instead :laugh: Michele is also the Director of Research and Development for Guide Dogs for the Blind (GDB) Michele has led the organisation through a gradual changeover from traditional training to clicker training in the guide dog work. She now works with GDB to actively support & assist other guide dog schools in their efforts to adopt Clicker Training.

Zoologists are using CT to train animals like polar bears, elephants & giraffes, not to do tricks, but so they will accept being handled for administration of drugs, nail clipping, teeth examination etc etc. Imagine in the middle of examining the back teeth of a polar bear, the bear suddenly became distracted Dolphins are trained with the same system, except the trainers use a whistle (as it can be heard beneath water) & fish as the treat. I have never seen a dolphin trained with a choke chain. Some trainers use a whistle instead of a clicker for their dogs, because they find it easier to handle, but it is still the same system...."mark then treat".

My own dogs are clicker trained..they certainly don't run off as soon as a distraction walks by. They do agility, canine freestyle & obedience. The older one used to be like a Tasmanian Devil, before I discovered CT & now she is great. I used the choke chain on her when she was younger, cause I was told that was the way to go & didn't know any better. The younger one hasn't known any other method than clicker based training.

I am not saying that choke chains & pronged collars do not work...I am sure they work very well, but there are better & kinder ways of training your dog & your dog will love you for it :)

[huski]

I am not saying that choke chains & pronged collars do not work...I am sure they work very well, but there are better & kinder ways of training your dog & your dog will love you for it :)

Do we really have to start an argument that dogs that are trained with aversives don't "love" their owners?

The "better" method is the one that gets the best results for the dog and their owner. It is "hog wash" to assume that every problem that any owner has with any dog is best solved with a clicker.

There is no doubt that clickers can be a useful tool, just like prong collars can be a useful tool. There is no one size fits all method that works best for every dog and owner.

Edited March 10, 2014 by huski

[Steph M]

Sheena I'd imagine the case described would be one where the owner/handler has put in a lot of work conditioning the dog before hand. Whereas if I showed up and expected Gus the distracto dog to work in front of all these people and fun things I'd likely get a different result.

[sheena]

I am not saying that choke chains & pronged collars do not work...I am sure they work very well, but there are better & kinder ways of training your dog & your dog will love you for it :)

Do we really have to start an argument that dogs that are trained with aversives don't "love" their owners?

The "better" method is the one that gets the best results for the dog and their owner. It is "hog wash" to assume that every problem that any owner has with any dog is best solved with a clicker.

There is no doubt that clickers can be a useful tool, just like prong collars can be a useful tool. There is no one size fits all method that works best for every dog and owner.

The "hogwash" is what Nek. said if you will go back & read that ridiculous statement :)

[sheena]

Sheena I'd imagine the case described would be one where the owner/handler has put in a lot of work conditioning the dog before hand. Whereas if I showed up and expected Gus the distracto dog to work in front of all these people and fun things I'd likely get a different result.

I think if we are really serious about training our dogs, then we do have to put a lot of work into it. Are you saying that if you don't want to put a lot of work into training our dog then get a choke chain :) Clicker training works faster than the other method mentioned & the dogs do not forget. I am sure you could get Gus to work in front of all those people if you trained him up to it :) How do you think we "condition our dogs beforehand"...certainly not with a choke chain...we use a clicker (marker) & rewards. You don't just turn up at an event & whip out the clicker, that Gus has never seen before & knows nothing about :)

[huski]

The "hogwash" is what Nek. said if you will go back & read that ridiculous statement :)

And stating that using a clicker is always the best option is also hogwash.

It doesn't matter if you are using rewards or corrections or both, no reputable trainer throws a dog into a high level of distraction and expects it to work well without first going through the phases of teaching; training and proofing the dog.

You don't start the dog in the highest level of distraction no matter what method you are using.

[huski]

I think if we are really serious about training our dogs, then we do have to put a lot of work into it. Are you saying that if you don't want to put a lot of work into training our dog then get a choke chain :) Clicker training works faster than the other method mentioned & the dogs do not forget. I am sure you could get Gus to work in front of all those people if you trained him up to it :) How do you think we "condition our dogs beforehand"...certainly not with a choke chain...we use a clicker (marker) & rewards. You don't just turn up at an event & whip out the clicker, that Gus has never seen before & knows nothing about :)

How many dogs have you trained to walk on a loose leash using the clicker and how long did it take, Sheena? I am not being a smart ass, I am genuinely interested in how quickly you get results with the clicker because I don't agree it works faster for every dog and handler.

[sheena]

The "hogwash" is what Nek. said if you will go back & read that ridiculous statement :)

And stating that using a clicker is always the best option is also hogwash.

It doesn't matter if you are using rewards or corrections or both, no reputable trainer throws a dog into a high level of distraction and expects it to work well without first going through the phases of teaching; training and proofing the dog.

You don't start the dog in the highest level of distraction no matter what method you are using.

That is exactly right .....hurray.... How long would it take me to train a dog to walk on a loose leash ????? How long is a piece of string. It would depend on the dog & how ingrained it's behaviour had become. With my own dog, who I had previously used Neks method & got nowhere, it took me about three days of one session a day of about 10 minutes & she was already two years old.

Why don't you look into it Huski...talk to people like Kelly & the Wonderdogs & you may be pleasantly surprised that there is "life after choker" :)

[LisaCC]

I don't really see why it has to be one method or another. I use clicker training on my boy, I also use a marker word with toy rewards. I not only have a flat collar but I have a martingale, a check chain (although rarely used, it has it's purpose) and a harness. I can use them for different purposes and he seems to understand fine, I actually think his training is going really well.

[huski]

That is exactly right .....hurray.... How long would it take me to train a dog to walk on a loose leash ????? How long is a piece of string. It would depend on the dog & how ingrained it's behaviour had become. With my own dog, who I had previously used Neks method & got nowhere, it took me about three days of one session a day of about 10 minutes & she was already two years old.

I think it's awesome you found something that works well for you, but it is short sighted to believe that one method works the best for every dog and owner.

Why don't you look into it Huski...talk to people like Kelly & the Wonderdogs & you may be pleasantly surprised that there is "life after choker" :)

I don't use check chains, in fact I use a lot of shaping and marker training. I have a pretty good grasp on how to use rewards effectively and I can post some videos of my dogs training if you'd like to confirm this. But I don't agree with your statements that clicker training is the best way to train all dogs. I don't believe there is a one size fits all approach to training dogs (or people) :)

[sheena]

Where did I ever say that CT is the ONLY way to train ALL dogs I was commenting on Nek's statement that dogs that are CT fall down under distractions. It seems like you & I are on the same track Huski. You use shaping & marker training to train your dogs. That is what CT is, it is marker training, whether you are using a clicker, a whistle, a marker word or in the case of deaf dogs, a flash light or a hand signal. It all comes under the same heading or reward based training using a marker & is commonly referred to as "clicker training" :)

[ari.g]

I was commenting on Nek's statement that dogs that are CT fall down under distractions.

Nek didn't say that. She said "not always foolproof IF the dog find the surrounding environment of higher value than the handler and the "treats" offered."

Edited March 11, 2014 by ari.g

[huski]

Where did I ever say that CT is the ONLY way to train ALL dogs

I said I disagree with your statement that clicker trianing is the best way to train dogs. This was in response to you saying;

I am not saying that choke chains & pronged collars do not work...I am sure they work very well, but there are better & kinder ways of training your dog & your dog will love you for it :)

I was commenting on Nek's statement that dogs that are CT fall down under distractions. It seems like you & I are on the same track Huski. You use shaping & marker training to train your dogs. That is what CT is, it is marker training, whether you are using a clicker, a whistle, a marker word or in the case of deaf dogs, a flash light or a hand signal. It all comes under the same heading or reward based training using a marker & is commonly referred to as "clicker training" :)

The clicker is just a tool, it is only as good or effective as the person using it. Just like every other tool. :) I think using clear communication (markers) in training is really beneficial no matter what training system you are using.

[huski]

I was commenting on Nek's statement that dogs that are CT fall down under distractions.

Nek didn't say that. She said "not always foolproof IF the dog find the surrounding environment of higher value than the handler and the "treats" offered."

Yep, but this is really true of any method you use, it's not effective to correct a dog in a high level of distraction if you haven't first taught, trained, and worked the dog up to being proofed in a highly arousing environment.

[Amax-1]

I am not saying that choke chains & pronged collars do not work...I am sure they work very well, but there are better & kinder ways of training your dog & your dog will love you for it :)

Do we really have to start an argument that dogs that are trained with aversives don't "love" their owners?

The "better" method is the one that gets the best results for the dog and their owner. It is "hog wash" to assume that every problem that any owner has with any dog is best solved with a clicker.

There is no doubt that clickers can be a useful tool, just like prong collars can be a useful tool. There is no one size fits all method that works best for every dog and owner.

It depends on whether or not you are taught to train dogs or teach training methods....unfortunately people who teach training methods are good at training dogs who support their method.....a good dog trainer can train any dog being open to what works best for the particular dog at hand with the wisdom from experience to make the call of what to use in equipment, when to use it and what for. I have seen handler aggressive dogs born from aversive methods as I have seen dogs that need aversive methods never trained with any reliability using clickers and positive reinforcement. I have seen aggressive dogs rehabilitated with prong, Ecollars and hard corrections as I have seen aggressive dogs of high drive rehabilitated with only toy reward in drive......it depends on the dog and handler's capabilities...no one method is best for all.....that's the bit which is complete hogwash IME.

You don't start the dog in the highest level of distraction no matter what method you are using.

Generally not.....but I have attained obedience from several dogs instantly with prong collar corrections in high distraction after months of failed clicker training and food treats with dogs that best value consequence for the wrong behaviour. I agree that after using prong and Ecollars that the old choke chain is well redundant and harsher on the dog if not used correctly and is more difficult to teach a novice handler to use a choke chain correctly....personally I haven't used a choke chain for 10+ years from advances in new technology in more refined corrective tools.

I was commenting on Nek's statement that dogs that are CT fall down under distractions.

Reward based training will always fall down to distractions unless the dog has enough drive to sustain it where any dog will train to consequence. Take a young dog chasing a ball who slams into the fence a few times learns to put the brakes on and they don't touch the fence...they learn to stop from full speed towards an object whilst in pursuit...how do they do that? Why do some dogs not want to get back into a car from hard braking and falling off the seat etc etc which is all behaviour based on consequence....dogs will train the same way on the same principles using aversion, but applying the right level of aversion to suit the particular dog is the key to success. Fallout from aversion can happen but it's rare and isn't close to the occurrence that motivational trainers make out it is and mostly it's all BS.

However take a dog with sustainable drive and use it's drive motivationally, that's a different story :)

Yep, but this is really true of any method you use, it's not effective to correct a dog in a high level of distraction if you haven't first taught, trained, and worked the dog up to being proofed in a highly arousing environment.

I agree in grooming a dog in training for specific behaviour in a specific environment you wouldn't apply corrections un-proofed, but I will give you an example taking a dog into a riot situation like gate crashed party that has spilled onto the street.....the dog is ramped big time and wants a bite, anyone will do, in a sea of prey items acting in a threatening manner you have no choice but to correct harshly if things with the dog start getting out of hand.....it's hard to proof a dog with that level of turbulence, some dogs aren't usable in a riot at all, but in some circumstances you have to work on the fly where no other option exists in mass distraction and sometimes if the dog has looped out an air block is the only effective option to take drive away from the dog.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Amax-1

[tdierikx]

It's a bloody CHECK chain... if you think of it as a CHOKE chain, then you are definitely using it wrong...

T.