Simply Grand Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I'm interested in people's knowledge of and experience with aggression towards humans in young puppies. Do you think it exists? What signs would you be worried about? If there are signs are they a reliable indicator of whether the dog will show aggression when older and is it something that can be changed if dealt with correctly? As an example, what would you think in this situation: 8/9 week old puppy who on several occasions over a week has growled quite seriously at humans. On the first occasion puppy is on a lap being patted, suddenly stills, makes and holds eye contact with the person then growls. Recovers and goes back to normal. Second occasion (different person) puppy has been playing and being patted, is then held upright under the "arms" with feet on the floor, growls, not sure about eye contact in this instance. Immediately following this puppy was taken by an experienced person (who did not see first instance but was aware of it), held in same position (under the arms) and growled again. Puppy was then briefly pushed a little (as in not released, held in a couple of different positions) to try and determine the seriousness of the growling - the growling escalated and puppy stilled and gave hard eye contact while still growling. This appears to be deliberate behaviour, not playful puppy growling and not a puppy finding its "voice" and making funny noises. No food or toys present so unlikely to be resource guarding. Possibly the puppy is sick or injured and in pain, if so is this an appropriate response for a puppy this young? Any thoughts much appreciated :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 First stop is a vet... puppy needs thorough checkup to make sure nothing is hurting it. I've had plenty of pups growl and even bite when held up under the armpits... some dogs just don't like being handled that way... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliwake Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 My pup didn't growl, but at that age he did bark at me quite aggressively with a fixed stare - several times. It was really upsetting at the time, but with some tips from our trainer at puppy preschool, he improved very quickly and now at 1 he is very placid and adoring. I'm far from being an expert, but just wanted to share my experience. I think he was just testing the limits and finding his place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 This issimilar to a rottie pup my mum had . We dismissed it for a while ..then when we had her xrayed ..she was euthed due to shocking hips, and an unhealed fracture in a shoulder - done when very young. This pup could also have a problem in its brain .... but it is IMO not a normal reaction ... except maybe for an unsocialised 'feral' type pup who has made it thru thus far by being a bully .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 If the pup is healthy and the aggression is not rooted in pain, I'd be worried about genetics of temperament. Is the pup only aggressive to strangers, or to everyone? Puppies can be aggressive from a very young age, but in almost all breeds this has been largely bred out. The exception is the Fila where one segment of the breed community deliberately selects for aggressive pups: See http://www.mindspring.com/~anableps/Image%20Pages%20folder/Ojeriza.html : "On the contrary to other puppies, a Fila Puppy is not inclined to relaxed playing with anyone. He attaches himself quickly to those with whom he lives but is, however, from his earliest youth suspicious of persons he does not know. Suspicion may make him irritated and annoyed and to some extent even make him growl with a certain amount of aggression, but yet without sufficient self-confidence to attack. In the course of his development the aversion against strangers will become more and more apparent. Already as a puppy the Fila will clearly show his displeasure if a stranger would try to touch him. At about the age of one year the Fila would attack any person unknown to him who would try to touch him." (Written by a Fila breeder who is Hon. Secretary of one of the two major Fila breed clubs in Brazil). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*kirty* Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 We had a 15wo AmStaff puppy brought into work once who wanted to take your face off. He was incredibly aggressive and had to be muzzled so the vet could look at him. He tried to attack the owner as well. This pup had been sold to a family with young kids. I have never seen a young pup behave like that before and it was very disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) Thank you guys, keep the comments coming :) Hypothetical puppy would definitely be thoroughly vet checked. ETA - I'm interested from a behavioural point of view and hoping I can learn from the experience of others. Edited March 1, 2014 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katdogs Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I don't like to think of a pup who can't be honest. Pain is pain. Physical pain might or might not be fixed. The pain of a confused and diswired dog is unimaginable. Poor pup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I have seen them and when pushed such as at PPS when the owner was trying to hold puppy quietly and firmly until it stopped wiggling. I have seen one launch into full attack mode with deep full depth teeth puncture marks. They were not holding the puppy in an weird way, the puppy was fine and was known for growling at people if asked to do something it didn't want, get moved from a lounge for example or touched when sitting or laying anywhere ( when it knew full well a person was there and it was not rough and the pup was not scared). IT did improve with patient and consistant handling and training but never a dog I would trust as if really pushed I was quite sure it would use it teeth with no bite inhibtion. I believed it was not wired correctly. I have no idea on temperaments of parents or siblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I once saw a 4 week old litter that were pts due to aggression at that age. Purebred mum who had been mated to a purebred dog then the local, very aggressive, street roaming, mongrel terrier jumped a 7' fence and mated her as well. DNA tests samples were taken at 3 weeks to check parentage but by 4 weeks, before results were back they were obviously crossbred. They were like feral puppies and unable to be handled at all due to such a high level of aggression, fought savagely with each other all day and the normally devoted dam wanted nothing to do with them. After consultation with a very experienced trainer, the whole litter was pts. Thankfully I have only ever seen this the once and it was scary to realise puppies could be born like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Some pups just don't like being handled a certain way... I've fostered enough pups to realise that this is normal. The fact that the pup you mention is giving a fair warning that it doesn't like whatever is happening - and not biting straight away - is a positive sign. I've had a few larger breed pups who have been going through a growth spurt act like that. They actually hurt while their tendons and muscles are stretched and have to catch up with their bone growth - touching those areas can cause discomfort, and the pup may give warning that they hurt when touched in those areas. A vet visit is always the first thing to do if you have a pup displaying discomfort at being handled. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karly101 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I had one puppy that reacted aggressively at my work which is a vet clinic. It's not normal behaviour...in all the puppies u see it's very unusual to get aggressive responses. It continued as we saw the puppy and at 6 months then the owner began to seek professional help. At a year the dog was put to sleep ..whilst it had become better due to hard work and medication it was unpredictable and unsafe in a home environment. So I would seek veterinary attention first rule out health then go straight to a behaviour specialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 As others have said - I would do a full vet check first.. I watched, and warned my sister, about a stafford pup she bought from a BYB years ago.. At around 12 weeks he was challenging her 5 year old female SBT. She would just swat him and he would circle her and growl.. It wasn't play.. He was always stiff/tense, his muscles always looked like he was ready to spring at you. By the time he was 9 months old, he had belted up the female dog and the other pei cross they had and he was running the show. He would walk past and eyeball you and growl.. He would circle the room, staring at you.. She had him desexed at 12 months but just a few months later, he bailed up my niece and my sister had to use a rake and put herself between the kid and the dog and back them inside the house with the other dogs.. She called the vet and he was PTS that afternoon.. He was never and affectionate pup, he didn't like a pat and would pull away if you tried to cuddle up to him.. I always thought there wasn't something right about him - the vet that put him to sleep suggested that perhaps he had a brain tumour because his behaviour really wasn't 'normal'.. He was one scary dog.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pjrt Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I have worked with dogs for 29 years now doing things to them that most of them would prefer not to have done but even then truly aggressive behavior from young puppies is rare. Every now and then I do meet a pup that is overtly aggressive and some of them come around with training and some of them go down a fairly predictable path. When I was running the dog rescue I went out to a country pound to assess a whole litter of kelpie cross pups approx 8 weeks old. I couldn't get near any of them. I had to refuse the whole lot and they were pts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 staffyluv ............ that is one scary story!! I am so glad that no one was hurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) I think there are way too many different factors that can be at play to be able to comment. In Any situation like that I would advise a behaviourial assessment by an experienced behaviorist. I have seen some pretty hard core working pups that behave in a way that would shock someone who hasn't had experience with pups or dogs like that. Edited March 1, 2014 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 staffyluv ............ that is one scary story!! I am so glad that no one was hurt She is lucky no one was hurt.. She was warned about him from almost as soon as they bought him home - he wasn't right.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Need to be careful here- what was described in the OP i have seen many puppies do to varying degrees without those puppies having serious issues. Descriptions can be warped too. But, yes we've had a couple of puppies with intense aggression issues- ie, they have put serious holes in people at 10-12 weeks. It does exist for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 If it's just staring and growling, depending on breed, I would be more concerned about lack of appropriate handling, some pain and a smattering of a genetic aspect. Although a puppy some who have learned this behavior by fighting for resources or being harassed a different kettle of fish to actual aggressive pups. I remember years ago a rottweiler puppy that had shredded the parents. I mean actually going for gold on the adults arms, the woman was up on a chair once this 10 week old pup was trying to eat her. He ended up euthanised, it was like seeing an adult dog in a tiny tiny package and he would not stop for anything. One of my own bitches as a wee pup took on my friends when they came to meet her for the first time. This teeny tiny rumbling fuzz ball that launched at my friend off the couch to take him down... he's lucky he had about 100kg on her :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 Those that have experienced young pups actually attacking people, did they also display pretty "normal" behaviour the rest of the time? Nek, do you mean being harassed by other dogs (litter mates) or by people? In my OP situation the puppy would have had pretty controlled human interactions and not been treated inappropriately at all, but the litter would have spent time on their own with and without mum without people watching them so she may have been bullied a bit I suppose. I can certainly see it being learned behaviour in some situations, I gave my 11 week old foster puppy her first little rawhide chew yesterday after she has been here three weeks being told to get lost by my dogs if she got too close when they had a treasure , and she growled when I touched her so I think she has learned that that's what you do (I'll be working on object exchange etc with her to make sure she doesn't become an actual resource guarder - I started yesterday but she completely lost interest in the rawhide and only wanted the treats I had to trade her so it didn't really work!) Btw, the OP isn't about her at all, she hasn't shown me any signs to be worried about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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