Zarb Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Hi all, Our family has a new addition, a 9 week old Aus Shepherd. She is quite comfortable around the house now, and loves exploring the back yard. We are trying Clicker training, and at the moment we are "charging the clicker". Problem is, she doesn't seem to be getting it. We have not found any reward so far that makes her bonkers, she just calmly sits there and eats what we give her - then lies down and doesn't pay any more attention or just walks away. We have had some luck with using affection as a reward, but it tends to work her up quite a bit and she doesn't pay any further attention - choosing instead to chew our pants :laugh: Seeing as we have had her only a few days, are we asking too much too soon? All the books we have read on positive reinforcement and charging the clicker make it out that she should "get it" within a dozen or so click+rewards. So far we are at day 3 of trying and she really hasn't responded. We thought that perhaps she is getting it, but isn't showing a massive reaction, so we tried moving on to getting her attention using her name, as well as starting to scratch the surface with some sits. No luck. Edited February 26, 2014 by Zarb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 is this any help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teekay Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Hi Zarb and welcome :) Aussie's are usually very clued up and most love their food. How often are you doing the sessions and how long is each session? Short sessions often throughout the day usually work best. Also what treats are you using? Come over to the Aussie thread and introduce yourself, lots of Aussie nutters in there :D Warning though, we will expect photos :D http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/87106-aussie-pics/page__p__1464187__fromsearch__1#entry1464187 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 That's a great video. Just a thought - are you using your puppy's meals for their training or is the food additional - they are only tiny so maybe they aren't hungry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) That's a great video. Just a thought - are you using your puppy's meals for their training or is the food additional - they are only tiny so maybe they aren't hungry? I was thinking the same. Some pups can take longer to value food if they've had constant, easy access. ETA: I never bother charging the clicker or the verbal marker anymore. I just pick a very simple behaviour and start training it. Pups and adult dogs are quick to pick it up. Edited February 26, 2014 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 My Aussie isn't very foody, but loves to play! I have videos of him tugging like a mad man at 8 weeks You could try using a toy as a reward. Puppy sits, she gets to play with a favourite toy that only comes out for training. My boy caught on to everything much quicker when I realised what he really wanted (to play). I would also stop before she gets bored and lays down. Keep everything really short and fun. Agree with Teekay, come over to the Aussie Thread. We love photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Hi all, Our family has a new addition, a 9 week old Aus Shepherd. She is quite comfortable around the house now, and loves exploring the back yard. We are trying Clicker training, and at the moment we are "charging the clicker". Problem is, she doesn't seem to be getting it. We have not found any reward so far that makes her bonkers, she just calmly sits there and eats what we give her - then lies down and doesn't pay any more attention or just walks away. We have had some luck with using affection as a reward, but it tends to work her up quite a bit and she doesn't pay any further attention - choosing instead to chew our pants :laugh: Seeing as we have had her only a few days, are we asking too much too soon? All the books we have read on positive reinforcement and charging the clicker make it out that she should "get it" within a dozen or so click+rewards. So far we are at day 3 of trying and she really hasn't responded. We thought that perhaps she is getting it, but isn't showing a massive reaction, so we tried moving on to getting her attention using her name, as well as starting to scratch the surface with some sits. No luck. What response are you looking for. You are teaching her that the click means "desired behaviour, reward coming". She doesn't have to externalise that response so a 'massive reaction' would be unlikely IMO. I'd say if you've not been overdoing it and are offering treats of sufficient value to her, she should have "got it". But here's a threshold question - what do you think this pup finds truely rewarding? What's her strongest drive? I'll offer you the best piece of advice I can give to anyone starting out with training a dog. When things aren't going according to plan, eliminate every possiblity at your end of the leash before blaming the dog. The other one is to put down the books, play with your pup and let her be a baby before really homing in on training. The lessons she needs right now are toilet training, trust and that you are her family. The first behaviour you really want to ingrain is the recall. Clicker training is of limited value in training a recall IMO. Don't burn her out overdoing the formal training just yet. Have fun wtith her. Edited February 26, 2014 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonwoman Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Hi all, Our family has a new addition, a 9 week old Aus Shepherd. She is quite comfortable around the house now, and loves exploring the back yard. We are trying Clicker training, and at the moment we are "charging the clicker". Problem is, she doesn't seem to be getting it. We have not found any reward so far that makes her bonkers, she just calmly sits there and eats what we give her - then lies down and doesn't pay any more attention or just walks away. We have had some luck with using affection as a reward, but it tends to work her up quite a bit and she doesn't pay any further attention - choosing instead to chew our pants :laugh: Seeing as we have had her only a few days, are we asking too much too soon? All the books we have read on positive reinforcement and charging the clicker make it out that she should "get it" within a dozen or so click+rewards. So far we are at day 3 of trying and she really hasn't responded. We thought that perhaps she is getting it, but isn't showing a massive reaction, so we tried moving on to getting her attention using her name, as well as starting to scratch the surface with some sits. No luck. Can she hear???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentchild Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 When I got my Aussie she wasn't a puppy, she was a foody but when I started her on the clicker she was quite meh about it as well, sort of like how you describe, she would take the food and perform the behaviours I wanted but wasn't terribly enthusiastic. I put aside training for a while and started just playing with her, having fun and building up our relationship, and once she gained some confidence, started to trust me and we started to bond, I went back to the clicker training and she caught on like a house on fire! There's been no stopping her since, she is a fantastic dog to train with now and it really feels like a partnership when I work her. It didn't take long at all. Maybe focus on bonding with your pup before worrying about tricks or anything else first, the others have also given lots of good advice. Seconding the photos. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarb Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Teekay: Each session is 5-10 minutes, and we usually do about 3 sessions throughout the day. I have way more time to devote if necessary, but advice we have received recommended not overdoing it for the first few weeks. As for treats, we have tried using her regular food (treating it out instead of giving it to her as a meal), little cubes of lamb heart (her fav so far), little cubes of cheese, Mince balls, freeze dried liver treats, and k9 natural lamb treats. Agility Dogs: We are using her treats as a portion of her daily intake, although she never seems to finish her meals. We might try cutting back on it. At the moment we are offering her about 6% of her bodyweight in food (as recommended by the dogfood company K9), but she is only really eating about 4%. Spotted Devil: She was free-fed at her mum's home, but we are moving her to set meal times, and I'm trying to either replace her set meal time with a training session (using her food as rewards piece by piece), or training just before meal times when she is most hungry. Maybe she just hasn't had enough time to appreciate food? As for not bothering charging the clicker or verbal marker, do you train using either of these? Or do you just reward a desired behaviour without a distinct marker? We trained our cattle dog like this, with a bit of luring and praising but no marker. LisaCC: She does seem to like affection and play time more than food, and we are trying to mix it up and sometimes we reward her with a treat plus a lot of affection. When she sits down disinterested or just walks off, it's normally within the first two or three repetitions, so definitely short :laugh: Haredown Whippets I'm just going off what I've read in a couple of books about Positive Reinforcement training, but it says that the response we are looking for with a successful "charging the clicker" is any noticeable sign of excitement upon hearing the marker, before actually receiving or seeing a treat. That's when they say that the dog has made the connection and is expecting a reward. At the moment there is just a head turn to the source of the click. Sorry if my post suggested anything otherwise, but I am not in any way blaming the dog. I'm simply putting out what I've been doing, and asking other peoples opinions on whether *I* can change anything to make things go smoothly. At the moment I have several hours a day with her, so it's not like the only thing we do is train. She gets lots of love and attention and plenty of play and exploration time. Honestly, I would be the happiest dog-parent in the world if the only thing I teach her is a good recall. Do you have any suggestions in training recall? At the moment making lots of noise and running in the opposite direction is working as a good recall, but she is slowly finding other things more interesting :D Dragonwoman Yes, I'm guessing she can. She is alert when other dogs are barking next door, as well as if someone accidentally drops something in the house. She also likes kissey noises :laugh: The breeder has also conducted breed sight and hearing tests with the vet, and all is OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 training recall? with a baby it's easy - she does NOT get food/cuddles/"goodpup" or anything unless she comes to you :) Just everytime you want to pat her/play with her or anything ..use her name :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) I use both a clicker and a verbal marker - with my own dogs and lots of others. Sometimes I don't use a marker at all and just let my food rewards do the talking. For recall I put pup on a leash so at they can't take off and self reward. Throw a boring treat to get them moving away. Let them eat the treat. Say their name once. And once only. Pup turns their head? Mark and treat. I like a "whiplash" response. If they don't respond the first few times you try this, walk your hands up the leash to the dog (don't pull the dog to you!) and stand by their shoulder. They will look at you in surprise. Treat. Once they get the idea you can extend distance and distractions. You still say their name once and once only. If they fail to respond walk them away and stop training for a few minutes. Only practice for very short periods. You can replace the thrown treat with a 2nd person. In one of my classes we have had 3 puppies off leash and up to 8 people with treats in a circle calling pups by name. Only the pup that is called gets a treat when called. Great fun! Don't make the mistake of using pup's name or recall to scold. And don't nag :) Around the house I will often call "pup, pup, pup!" when I'm not convinced they will recall. Saves devaluing their name and recall. Edited February 26, 2014 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) ETA: I never bother charging the clicker or the verbal marker anymore. I just pick a very simple behaviour and start training it. Pups and adult dogs are quick to pick it up. I do the same. I use verbal markers more than clickers at the moment, but they pick up what the clicker or verbal marker means very quickly without 'charging' it. My current youngster gets all of his food as training rewards, whether for an actual action or for something like going into his crate. No free meals ETA: I would do shorter training sessions. Puppies have the attention span of a gnat (less than a flea)! My training sessions are maximum 5 minutes and that includes our play session before and after, so the 'training of the behaviour' is much less than that. Edited February 26, 2014 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teekay Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) It certainly is early days Zarb and I agree with the others about not worrying too mauch about the clicker and enjoying your pup, although it sounds like you are :) With regard to recall, at this stage working on building your relationship is a great foundation for an awesome recall. If she thinks you (or other family members) are the provider of all things good she will be more likely to come to you. We played simple games like doggie tennis when Luka was small. Just have two of you (or more) and call her to you and have treats to give her ( or a toy to tug) and then ignore while the other person calls her excitedly to get her to come to them, treat/toy etc. If she doesn't know her name that well or isn't consistently coming it would be worth while using a different sound to call her to begin with, you don't want her to learn to ignore her name. We used an exctied "Pup pup pup" sound with Luka. I still use that occasionally if I want to distract him from something. Also, and I think a lot of people find this difficult but do not call her if you are not sure she will come. I read somewhere that unless you are prepared to bet $50 that she will come when called, first time, then don't call her. Get her attention some other way or go and get her. Again, this is so she never learns to ignore you calling her. You sound like you have a good idea about training her anyway so apologies if you already knew all this :) ETA. Snap Spotted devil, you posted while I was typing :D Edited February 26, 2014 by teekay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 What response are you looking for. You are teaching her that the click means "desired behaviour, reward coming". She doesn't have to externalise that response so a 'massive reaction' would be unlikely IMO. I have to respectfully disagree, when I click my dogs come a-runnin'! Actually when I get the clicker out they're over me like a rash. Regarding recall, I still use the "pup pup pup" that a few others mentioned with my 6 month old :) Haven't had too much of a chance to train the command properly so I like to set him up for success, he won't ignore me when I'm making high pitched noises and running backwards :) I still charge the marker but I've found some pups like to have a command to go with it right from the start, for example their name. Aussies have naturally good focus so I've never met a puppy version that doesn't respond to its name straight away. So you'd use name -> click -> treat. Their little brains all act so differently :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Teekay: Do you have any suggestions in training recall? At the moment making lots of noise and running in the opposite direction is working as a good recall, but she is slowly finding other things more interesting :D Get it 100 % reliable before training with any kind of distraction and when you do take the step up, add a long line to ensure you get the desired performance. Some would suggest that you should increase the degree of performance required and only reward it when you get it but this is one behaviour I would ALWAYS jackpot. And if you don't get it... bugger off in the other direction.. all dogs will test boundaries and you need to make sure that blowing you off is not rewarding. There's that pesky negative reinforcement again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I have used the clicker to train my young guy since I got him as a pup. I also used it to train his recall & he has the most fantastic recall (except if there is a cow standing there pulling faces at him :laugh: ), but the chase is only brief & he is back within seconds. The older girl I have been using a clicker with her for the last four years. I use a clicker when I am training a new behaviour or polishing up an old one & it is ALWAYS followed by a treat. I use a verbal marker ..."yes" or "good" once the behaviour is learnt & it is not always followed by a treat. The others have given you some good advice, but I don't think anyone has mentioned that you might need to be in a distraction free environment to start with. You may be interested in having a read of this article I wrote for our club Introduction to Clicker Training Go to the page then click on the link to the PDF article. Good luck & photos are a must :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 You could start with "In Yer Face" recall. That is when you load yourself with lots of very small yummy treats in a distraction free environment. Get down to your pups level & call his name, he looks, you treat. Repeat this rapid fireing, call name, he looks, you treat. Second step is to get a helper...both of you are armed with a clicker & treats. Start off just a few feet apart. One calls & AS SOON AS HE TURNS click, then treat him when he gets there. Then the other person does the same. Gradually increase the distance between you & keep all training sessions very short & fun. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarb Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Update: Well it seems she is slowly coming around. She is starting to realise that food isn't always available, and now she works for every meal :laugh: We have sit on cue now 90% of the time, and we are working on DOWN. Her name is also coming along nicely, we get eye contact maybe 70% of the time when calling her name. Next step is recall. Thanks for all the suggestions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) :) Edited February 28, 2014 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now