Hey Steve & Erny

[wire]

Hi Erny & Steve, just wanted to ask you two advice for my boy please :)

He's a 6 year old bossy wheaten and in the last couple of years has had way too many hot spots and hard fatty lumps come and go. The groomer sometimes squeezes them out (not the hot spots obviously) but I've asked her not to anymore. We keep his coat short. He also has an on going ear infection that seems impossible to clear out. When it looks like it's healing the other dog starts licking it and sets off the yeast growth again. I put bitters around the ear to stop the other dog licking but he seems to like the taste now!

Swimming at the beach helps clear up the hot spots within a couple of days but more just keep occurring.

Their diet is 1 cup of artimis duck (grain free) and beef ( raw) daily, plus chicken necks a couple of times a week. Treats are kangaroo tendons dry, plus, they also get 1 teaspoon of coconut oil and 1 teaspoon of protexin multiple-strain probiotic in their dinner at least 5 times a week.

The other wheaten has never had hot spots and he's way more laid back, wonder if that's relevant? They're full brothers.

Erny, I've read you mention having your dogs hair analyzed and I'm keen to try this. Can you tell me where to enquire?

And Steve, I'll be ordering the calendula from you next week but can you think what else might help Murphy?

Thanks :)

Edited February 21, 2014 by wire

[Steve]

Remember that skin problems are not just skin deep so part of what you do must be about what is going on inside. That is diet, allergy or auto immune dysfunction.

Calendula can do the job but because the skin is really inflammed and not just all over itchy you can add some other herbs which will accelerate the healing process and help inhibit bacterial infection without irritating the skin or interfering with the activities of beneficial microbes and ecto parasites – the friendly bugs that help keep the skin healthy. If you say who you are when you order the Calendula Ill throw in a blend of Lavender[Augustifolia] organic peppermint and organic sage] for you to add to the Calendula for you to give a go to target the hot spots. Combine one part of the herb mix to 4 times the Calendula and place into a glass or stainless pot.Not Aluminium. Cover with water and bring to a gentle boil over moderate heat. Simmer for 10 minutes, then remove from heat and allow to stand until cooled. Strain the cooled fluid through a sieve. Then soak the dog's skin and coat and let him drip-dry. This will kill yeast and bacteria sooth it and make it feel relieved and stop the itch should show quick results - within a week if its going to work.

Edited to add this type of Lavender is edible and so are all the other herbs so it wont hurt if he gets small amounts of the spent herb each day on his food to boost his immune system either

Edited February 22, 2014 by Steve

[Lily123]

Sorry to hijack your thread Wire but just wanted to say that it warms my heart to see people like Steve and Erny so happy and willing to share their vast experience. I take my hat off to you. I'm always filing away bits of information and am just amazed at how much knowledge people like this have accumulated. Thank you.

[piper]

Wire - can I suggest swapping the beef to a different protein source. I don't have allergy dogs but I often read people saying beef is a common cause for itchiness.

[wire]

Thanks Steve, I appreciate your comments. You're right about his internal health being out of whack he became quite ill at the age of 1 and it was identified as a bad lymph node that never formed properly. He suffers from fluid retention on a lower limb but has lived with it relatively comfortably for 5 years. Will be in touch :)

And Lily, I totally agree and appreciate their comments on this forum.

Cheers

[Steve]

Thanks Steve, I appreciate your comments. You're right about his internal health being out of whack he became quite ill at the age of 1 and it was identified as a bad lymph node that never formed properly. He suffers from fluid retention on a lower limb but has lived with it relatively comfortably for 5 years. Will be in touch :)

And Lily, I totally agree and appreciate their comments on this forum.

Cheers

What do you do for the fluid retention?

[wire]

Hi piper, I do on occasions give cooked chicken (they get raw chicken necks a couple of times a week) and have tried raw lamb, they like it but the farts are enough to kill us.

They only get human grade meat, I guess I should try the turkey and/or kangaroo, will give it a go but they seem to enjoy the beef, either diced chunks or mince, mixed with their kibble. Oh, and they like the little chicken hearts. They don't get leftovers.

Although Murphy gets all these hot spots, he's not scratching or chewing. The only thing that causes him grief is his ear. Thanks for your comment on beef, it's got me thinking about trying something else as it may be an allergy after all.

[wire]

...double post

Edited February 22, 2014 by wire

[wire]

What do you do for the fluid retention?

The fluid is always there, we don't treat it. It tends to dissipate a little sometimes and blows up at other times although the past few years has stabilized somewhat. We had tried draining it (in the early days) but it always came back within 48 hours.

He's a little overweight just now but he does walk 7km most days and this seems to help move things about, he's quite agile. We stopped all treatment 4 years ago and had him nurtured against vet recommendation.

If you can suggest something I'm happy to consider it as I do worry the fluid could be building up inside his organs where we cannot see it.

And in case you're wondering where it is, it's in his penis region making it look massive and also fills the area where his testicles were, making him look entire.

Thanks Steve :)

[wire]

....double post

Edited February 22, 2014 by wire

[wire]

...delete

Edited February 22, 2014 by wire

[wire]

Edited February 22, 2014 by wire

[Steve]

The fluid is always there, we don't treat it. It tends to dissipate a little sometimes and blows up at other times although the past few years has stabilized somewhat. We had tried draining it (in the early days) but it always came back within 48 hours.

He's a little overweight just now but he does walk 7km most days and this seems to help move things about, he's quite agile. We stopped all treatment 4 years ago and had him nurtured against vet recommendation.

If you can suggest something I'm happy to consider it as I do worry the fluid could be building up inside his organs where we cannot see it.

And in case you're wondering where it is, it's in his penis region making it look massive and also fills the area where his testicles were, making him look entire.

Thanks Steve :)

Poor thing. Ill make him a special mix and so he can have a nice cup of tea. just remember to tell me who you are when you place your order.

[Erny]

Hi Wire.

Sorry to hear your dog's experiencing these issues, but as per Steve's response, what you're seeing are the symptoms of something that is quite often way deeper than skin-deep ….. i.e. diet.

I'm no canine nutritionist but as a result of my experience and the learning I've received as a result of it, I am highly suspicious of the meat protein sources that are commonly available to us these days. In my unprofessional opinion and belief, it's not the meat (i.e. beef; lamb; chicken) that is the origin of the problem, but what these animals are fed before they become a meat source that could be contributing to the problems we are seeing more and more of in our dogs these days. What meat sources and what quality are included in commercial foods along with whatever else goes into them and their processing is something else again that I think complicates much potential for being able to narrow down to determining where or what the issue really is.

So I think (and again, this is based on own experience and learning by reading and listening to others who had and have more than I) the best thing to do is follow the "KIS" principal. i.e. Keep It Simple. Select ONE meat protein source. Preferably one which is (a) organic and/or (b) an organic novel meat source your dog has not eaten before. If you can't go to "(b)", then aim for "(a)". For this, I find the easiest and cheapest to source is Roo mince (human grade - with no preservatives etc added). Your dog will need extra added as meat off the bone alone is not sufficiently balanced. In my instance I followed the recommended diet that Augustine Approved put up on their website. This included select veggies in select quantities, along with their "SuperBoost" supplement (which comprises of a conglomerate of herbs - Steve would understand the individual herbs and their beneficial effects more than I).

But in addition to the above, I did the hair-DNA test. You could try this first if you would prefer, to determine its indications. I use Ross Wilson of Coburg Health & Nutrition Store (Coburg, Victoria) for this. I brush hair from my dog, enclose the sample in a *Glad* zip-lock bag and post it in. I include a list of any medications my dog is on at the time. The analysis comes back showing what the hair sample reveals as the dog being low or imbalanced in and it includes with each result a list of symptoms that can accompany that imbalance. This is it in a summarised nutshell. I have been quite dumbfounded on more than one occasion (for more than one animal/human) as to what things are revealed and how closely it can target. In the analysis a list of recommended supplements are given. It's up to you where you decide to get them from but other than any which I find I can get from Steve, I find it easier to purchase them from the same store Ross Willson works from. The supplements can prove pricey, but in the long-term I think it works out cheaper than all the Vet visits that otherwise prove necessary but aren't necessarily successful overall.

But do go ahead and make use of the Calendula Tea (and the Lavendar, as per Steve's suggestion) to help your dog's skin in the meantime, whilst you are working on sourcing the origins of your dog's troubles. You are at the very least helping soothe the symptoms and also helping to prevent those symptoms turning into secondary skin infections. This is what I did and how I avoided my dog having to be administered antibiotics and cortisone, which back then, each of the different Vets I saw (save for Dr Bruce Syme, in Castlemaine ) was urging me to do.

As a "by-the-way" and a bit of an aside, as this is not likely to be your dog's problem but something I think I may have narrowed my dog's problems to …… Mandela has had two different things he has *suffered*, both of which I've had him to various Vets/Specialists about at different intervals over his current life-time. One is his digestive issues - no known definitive diagnosis other than "sensitive". The other is skeletal - odd gait. No definitive diagnosis of any reason why and X-rays show "clear". Putting two and two together (with the help of first, my current Vet and second, my own personal Chiropracter who *pinned* it) I have come up with a possible ONE cause for BOTH dilemmas. And that is, Mandela's Iliopsoas (core) muscle. My current Vet pointed to this as perhaps being the problem that caused Mandela to show very obvious and positive signs for a sore back. My Chiro (yep, we tend to chat a lot whilst all my joints are put back to where they ought to be, lol) was the one who explained to me that this core muscle effects/affects the digestive system. I won't bog this down with Mandela's story, but my hypothesis that THIS is where Mandela's troubles all come from helps me make sense of so many things that I've tried along the way and also why they've failed or not been 100% successful. I'm now in the throws of organising to start on core strength exercises for him. My one (at this time) remaining unanswered question is whether it is *core strength* that is the issue, or whether it is possible that his core muscle is too short for this frame. Not much out there on the internet in terms of dogs, other than info on Iliopsoas muscle injuries. But there ya go. It is amazing what we "see" and what "really is", how different those two things can be and how easy it is for us to miss it if we don't keep digging.

ETA: Pardon the marathon post.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Erny

[VizslaMomma]

Wow.............. might be a marathon post. Totally informative and helpful as well, Erny.

I have decided with this new puppy ( now aged 14 weeks) to avoid 'chemicals' after completing the vaccinations.

Long thought 'meat' poisonous to humans & by default dogs.

Appreciated the contribution.

[Erny]

Wow.............. might be a marathon post. Totally informative and helpful as well, Erny.

I have decided with this new puppy ( now aged 14 weeks) to avoid 'chemicals' after completing the vaccinations.

Long thought 'meat' poisonous to humans & by default dogs.

Appreciated the contribution.

Glad you found it helpful, or at the very least, interesting, VM :) .

Also glad your mind-set is to work to avoid 'chemicals'. But do take into account your environment as well. *Touch Wood* - risk of tick bite where I am is low. Same for heart-worm. Consequently, I don't treat to prevent these things. Both dog (as an individual) and environment (for "risk" factor) need to be taken into account and balanced as much as possible.

Congrats on your new pup, and I think it is great that people are opening their eyes more and more to the wonders and possibility of natural treatments . This should never be done with a blind eye to conventional modern medical treatments though, nor to the exclusion of Veterinary diagnosis.

[Steve]

Re the chemicals. My advice is to get educated - look at what your dogs risk factors are for parasites in your area .To do this you need to identify what parasites there are internal and external and look at their life cycle, how your dog lives and possible alternatives and consequences. For example some things like Parvo should be treated with vaccination until they are 12 months old - all of the research shows us that dogs are immune after this for the rest of their lives. But when it comes to worming and heartworm meds - these are chemicals - they affect the immune system and the long term health of your dog - look at the risk factors and the adverse effects of the drugs ,When drug companies test this crap they only have to do so for a very short period of time so look at the individual chemicals in the medications and then look at possible side affects. If you think after you have done the research that your dog may be at risk - look at possible alternatives and weigh up what you think is best for your dog.

Just because a product is herbal or grown or used for humans doesn't mean its not a chemical and cant do harm to your dog especially if it is given over a lengthy period or interacts with something else as well. There are many things that are recommended here on this forum and advice which are incorrect too.

Some things should be used as medicines to help with a problem and not given over a lengthy period of time because they stop the body producing enzymes and other things in the form that is better for good health and the body can become immune to it.

As far as diet is concerned. You dont need to be a rocket scientist or kitchen whizz to feed your dog a healthy well balanced diet that will ensure good health.

When you go shopping for groceries or feed kids you understand that you have to include lots of variety - you know if you eat the same food every day without that variety you will get sick and you get sick of the food - your body craves other foods.

Sometimes you will hear great stuff about a new brand of dog food but no matter what that dog food is, what they say is in it , or how its made I promise you if that's all you feed that's not a good thing and will impact negatively on the immune system and the long term health of your dog. I feed myself and my kids meat that comes through a butcher shop and I'm not up for spotting for organic meats for my dog. Feeding a variety of different meats means less risk of an over load for humans and dogs anyway.

Raw food diets most closely resemble what the dog has evolved on and what it chooses to eat given a choice but if you feed it the same mix of raw foods every day or too often then you may see long term problems through a lack of or overload of some nutrients too. Here to ensure my dogs do get variety whatever we eat for dinner is what the dog gets - so this evening we had chicken parmigiana and the dogs got raw chicken "balls" these are balls I make up about the size of baseballs with raw pet chicken mince - which has the bone as well as the meat and I mix in all different kinds of fruit and vegs and different mixes of herbs and freeze them - when I take out our chicken for dinner I take theirs out too and they get a couple of chicken wings too to wash their "balls" down.

When its really hot they get these frozen like ice blocks and they love them. So each day as Im preparing the food for my family the dogs eat the equivalent but raw. This way I know the dogs are getting as much variety as we are. This works for me but I live in the boonies and I have huge freezers and buy everything in bulk and grow my own fruit and vegs,work from home and I feed a family with no take away and no junk food shops around me. So what works for me wont work for others - so work out what will be best for you. If its feeding a commercial diet - dont only feed that brand indefinitely unless you also add in a lot of variety of extras. When you look at supplements don't use one or two nutrients indefinitely - nothing is as easy as it sounds - all nutrients need other nutrients to assimilate and giving one or two may mean bigger problems down the track.

the good news is as you work at learning and bringing your dog to better health you can apply most of it to yourself and your family too.

Wire with your dog as you know the lymph issue will be causing the symptoms and there is little - nothing you can do about the cause but you can ease the symptoms and lower the impact a bit.

[sandgrubber]

I'm neither Steve nor Erny. But I've had a lot of dogs, most of them bred by me. I've never had any allergy problems and I feed normal commercial food. When I lived in Oz I fed a lot of chicken carcasses, no doubt from chickens raised in disgusting chicken factories. I use pretty normal schedules of vaccination etc., don't use flea meds if there are no fleas . . . but I'd guess my guys get pretty average exposure to chemicals.

The fact that you have brothers, one fine and one affected, strongly suggests that there's a genetic problem involved. One pup won in the genetic lottery. The other drew a bad hand.

It won't help you in ameliorating the problem, but I would suggest discussing the problem with your breeder. Something in the genetic is going on. At minimum, the mating should not be repeated. Preferably, the breeder should try to figure out if the problem has arisen in other pups from that bitch (or dog), and if it has, the bitch (or dog) should be removed from the breeding population.

[Erny]

I'm neither Steve nor Erny. But I've had a lot of dogs, most of them bred by me. I've never had any allergy problems and I feed normal commercial food. When I lived in Oz I fed a lot of chicken carcasses, no doubt from chickens raised in disgusting chicken factories. I use pretty normal schedules of vaccination etc., don't use flea meds if there are no fleas . . . but I'd guess my guys get pretty average exposure to chemicals.

The fact that you have brothers, one fine and one affected, strongly suggests that there's a genetic problem involved. One pup won in the genetic lottery. The other drew a bad hand.

It won't help you in ameliorating the problem, but I would suggest discussing the problem with your breeder. Something in the genetic is going on. At minimum, the mating should not be repeated. Preferably, the breeder should try to figure out if the problem has arisen in other pups from that bitch (or dog), and if it has, the bitch (or dog) should be removed from the breeding population.

Oh - I have informed the breeder of the problem(s) ….. from the early outset. No help. No interest. The breeder blamed me for initial growth abnormalities because of the "good food" I was giving him. He came to me weighing 3.5kg, when he should have been 7 or 8 kg. No comment or explanation from the breeder. One time during the very early days of these troubles (I think this was before skin eruptions and the main issue was weight gain) and I was in a spin trying to work out what was the cause I spoke to the breeder and she informed me that one of his relatives was inclined to being lean and difficult to hold weight and Mandela possibly took after him. That was where the 'help' in that conversation began and finished. Some time further (by this time, troubles had increased) I got back to the breeder to see if I could find out who owned that dog and whether I might be able to speak to them, only to be told that dog was no relative of Mandela's. Then later on, when I was having trouble getting weight on him due to his food sensitivities, all I received was a resounding remonstration for not having enough weight on him. There has been not one scrap of interest leading to enquiry after Mandela's health from the breeder.

You might be right and genetics is certainly something I'm not blind to. But just because your dog (and many dogs, in fact) do ok on common foods available to us, doesn't mean that it is the best food for them. Just because it may be genetic doesn't mean that "bad" food didn't contribute to that way further back down the line. It possibly didn't show up way back then either.

(By "bad" food I mean food that might contain contaminants that can affect the body adversely, albeit undetected.)

The other thing to note is that yes, my dog is sensitive to these things. Meaning that his body shows them up in obvious ways that are visually perceptible. That others don't, doesn't mean the food is right or the best for their system. They may get through life quite happily and if they're not breeding dogs, any underlying thing that is not perceptible won't get passed on. But it doesn't mean they aren't affected by it in one shape or form. Minutely or more so.

I am somewhat more sensitive to what food contains for my dog - understandably so given the years of issues and hard work to bring him through. And when a dog is exhibiting those sensitivities, all the more reason to try for food that has been reared 'naturally' as, if the problems continue to occur, how does one separate possibilities of cause?

Edited February 23, 2014 by Erny

[Steve]

I understood the probable instigating problem to be a congenital issue with the lymph node and unless this is common in the breed unlikely to be genetic.

There is so much more to look at including what diet and what chemicals a bitch is exposed to and how that may impact on her puppies and their puppies and even what may be going on for a dog when a chemical is introduced. Living in different places also impacts on the stresses and environmental factors a dog may be exposed to. Lots also has to do with where the breed developed and what the staple diet of the founding stock in the main was too. Just because dogs dont get the same symptoms and manifest the problems the same way doesn't mean its not going on.

From a breeders perspective its really important to be able to breed healthy puppies which will live long happy healthy lives generation after generation and it's what drives me to learn and research and study - look deeply into genetic issues in the breed and the lines, avoid chemicals and feed only the best diet possible. its preferable the puppies I send out into the world do that without too much effort on the part of the new owner .Id like to think my puppies go to their new homes and eat what ever is offered to them ,cope with any environmental crap, stress, and chemicals and have no adverse reaction and live till old age. So far for over 30 years that has been exactly the case and only 2 out of hundreds have ever had any sign of an issue - both had allergies to grass and both parents were removed from any further breeding.Genetics and breeding management is a whole new topic.

BUT when you are a dog owner and faced with dealing with health issues, the stress that goes with it and constant vet bills - watching your dog suffer you look for a way to take control, help your dog and ease its suffering or prevent the next dog you own becoming ill too. The more you know the more your decisions are changed and why would you give your dog a monthly chew for heart worm knowing its a chemical similar to cockroach bait when you know the risk of your dog getting heartworm is zero even if you are confident that its genetics don't indicate it will react ? problem is most of the things that impact dont do so overnight so when you see itchy skin in 6 months time you don't associate that with that treatment or exposure . You say nothing is different Ive been giving xxxx for 6 months now and Ive had none of these symptoms. When you suppliment Vit C for 12 months and then see kidney stones and liver damage you dont associate that with giving the vitamin C either. So much to talk about isn't there?